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JohnA

The Trump and Brexit Connection

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I've read that the UK might have some kind of "do over" on the Brexit vote, is that true ?

I think that's amazing that a vote like that wouldn't stand, it isn't like that wasn't a fair election or something, or that people weren't fully aware of what they were voting on when they went in to vote on the issue.  That was one of the hardest fought elections we in America had ever witnessed in the UK from afar, it seems absurd that some might push you back into it just to get a result that they prefer.

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4 minutes ago, Lowlow said:

I've read that the UK might have some kind of "do over" on the Brexit vote, is that true ?

I think that's amazing that a vote like that wouldn't stand, it isn't like that wasn't a fair election or something, or that people weren't fully aware of what they were voting on when they went in to vote on the issue.  That was one of the hardest fought elections we in America had ever witnessed in the UK from afar, it seems absurd that some might push you back into it just to get a result that they prefer.

There are a significant number of people with influence, who have the eyes and ears  of select media organisations, who would very much like to do it all over again.

However, politically, it’s difficult to see it happening. The risk of serious social unrest would be very real.

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1 minute ago, Shinus73 said:

There are a significant number of people with influence, who have the eyes and ears  of select media organisations, who would very much like to do it all over again.

However, politically, it’s difficult to see it happening. The risk of serious social unrest would be very real.

I would think that social unrest would be a real possibility.

It doesn't seem fair that you could just keep forcing the public to re-vote until you get the result you want.

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Just now, Lowlow said:

I would think that social unrest would be a real possibility.

It doesn't seem fair that you could just keep forcing the public to re-vote until you get the result you want.

Indeed, but that’s not going to stop some people from trying - they are absolutely certain that they know best.

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We have a similar kind of situation with Trump's election in the U.S. because our politics has turned into a strange kind of urban vs. rural feud and it is the urban people who have access to the media.  Look at any county-by-county election map in the U.S. and it is small bits of blue in the cities surrounded by a sea of red in less urban areas.  Our media focuses on anything Democratic (one of our two main political parties) including demonstrations, support for gun control, women's marches, etc, and downplays and/or mocks anything rural people think or care about.  That seems similar to me to the Brexit issue because it seems like a lot of the people who voted for Brexit were outside the urban centers in the UK, or on the margins, and that it was mostly urban people voting to remain.  The media resides in urban areas, it doesn't surprise me that they find common cause with other urban people and their way of seeing the world (i.e. leftist and collectivist instead of separatist and individualist)

Edited by Lowlow

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@Lowlow ... I think if you go ask Republican and Democratic voters issue by issue what they are for, then there is a lot of common ground. But most politicians are bought, so they vote how their donors tell them to. Trump won using a populist message, well he lost the popular vote, but anyway. Hillary was seen as a typical politician. Sanders was more popular but was in an unfair primary. He was populist too.

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1 hour ago, JohnAnsink said:

I think if you go ask Republican and Democratic voters issue by issue what they are for, then there is a lot of common ground. But most politicians are bought, so they vote how their donors tell them to. Trump won using a populist message, well he lost the popular vote, but anyway. Hillary was seen as a typical politician. Sanders was more popular but was in an unfair primary. He was populist too.

It is clear Trump did not lose the popular vote. HRC disappeared off the planet and he worked like a Trojan, rally after rally packed to the rafters. No way José did he get less votes.

In the fullness of time it will become apparent exactly how big the voter fraud was. In the fullness of time many things will become apparent. i heard one of the sealed indictments is 80 thousand pages long - i wonder who that might be for? i heard there have been 9 attempts on Trump's life so far. Good job he has his own security. The media and political classes wish him dead. They would not be so active against a president if that president was one of their's. i am coming to the opinion he is actually one of the good guys and is playing one hell of a game of poker.

 

Edited by sixgun

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9 hours ago, Lowlow said:

I would think that social unrest would be a real possibility.

It doesn't seem fair that you could just keep forcing the public to re-vote until you get the result you want.

 

5 hours ago, KDave said:

Keep voting till you get it right. 

Ireland got their referendum right second time round, we might do too :ph34r:

Not sure how welcome any opinions from “outsiders” will be taken here, on a UK matter. Especially one as touchy as Brexit. But I would like to say a bit about referendums in general, and the notion of whether a second is ever acceptable as has been mentioned.

Discounting regional referendums in the UK (those held only within Scotland, Wales, N.Ire), the UK has held just 2 national referendums in the 40 years up until the third – Brexit. Yours is not a nation that revolves around referendums or using them. Not to imply any negative by that. That is just how it is. Referendums are a way of life in some EU countries, and especially so here in Ireland. It is not unusual for us to have half a dozen in a few years.

It astounds many of us here the level of umbrage that comes out in the UK government, media and the “leave” side whenever a second vote is floated as an option. Your “leave” side reason that the people have decided. The will of the majority must be honoured. Democracy has spoken. You can’t keep voting until the “remain” get the result they prefer. A second vote is a betrayal that flies in the face of democratic values. Ok ok….

As a nation that must go to the people whenever constitutional change is on the cards, we do not view referendums quite like that. Firstly, it is not an election, it is coming to a fork in the road where we try make the best choice for the future. Yes, the democratic election cycle of government is absolute, and binding, no matter who is elected or by how tiny a majority. You don’t get to re-run the whole thing again. But referendums should be malleable. Referendums are about ideas and direction, not about winners and losers or us-against-them. And the results determine what steps are best taken next by the government, rather than a written-in-stone view. They indicate the direction the people wish to go, based on the arguments that were put forward by the yes & no sides. But is it too close to call, and were there misunderstandings along the way? The reason referendums need to be malleable as I said, is because occasionally they carry the weight of very long term repercussions. Generations worth. The type of issues that go beyond the simple democratic election processes at local and national level every 4 or 5 years. You must be absolutely convinced that there are no reasons to question such a considerable change. Bad governing can be rectified in the short term. The enormity of where a referendum like brexit takes you needs to be weighed differently. No matter if you are in the leave or remain camp. Ultimately, both have the same wish at heart – for the nation to have done the right thing, because there is no going back once it’s done.

We have had referendums which have been small matters. Rejected or accepted, it’s done and move on. The same topic can be re-visited again in another 2 or 3 decades as times change, or as popular opinion demands in the future. And then there are some of major consequence, such as those involving our own treaties within the EU. On more than one occasion we have rejected a proposal which takes our nation into a major change of direction, one of quite big implications. This has led to a re-vote some months later. At first look, this may seem ridiculous, but in fact it is the ultimate in calm considered democracy. When the whole future direction of your nation is in the balance, the issue can be re-debated, any and all claims that were made by both sides can be re-addressed and tested whether they in fact hold up or indeed had any truth in them to begin with. Issues that came to light from both sides before the referendum can have clarity and/or concessions sought.

In the case of brexit, the very tight percentage majority warrants some thought if perhaps charging ahead because you fear being labelled anti-democratic, is wise. A better course would have been to use the initial result as a shot across the bow of the EU, state the case for a further referendum, and begin talks with the EU for some changes which the UK could then return with to the people as the basis for another referendum. A first referendum in these cases serves as a tool for change, an indicator, a bargaining position – not to be carved in stone while there is still any chance that leaving may not be for the best. There is a mindset in the UK that a re-vote on a referendum is weakness and anti democratic. In fact it shows strength and character to re-assess. It’s the hard line of never look back and forge on regardless which is the lesser.

Anyway, welcome or not (the latter I suspect), that is this outsiders opinion of brexit. I’ll get my coat.

 

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Yes those ignorant racist people who voted leave had no idea what they were doing. Do you not see the damage Brexit has done? It even snowed last week! 

Good post swagger, but when the remainers whole argument to stay is based on the bad things that will happen to us outside, it is weakness to have another vote. Cowardice in fact. 

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We British are a pessimistic people by nature, and often self-deprecating. We are not prone to populist sentiment or risk taking when it comes to our well-being, unless the rewards are great. The fact that we as a nation did vote to leave, in light of my previous statement, should tell you all you need to know. We were bombarded by government approved leaflets and propaganda which was designed to scare the British into voting remain. But the remain camp forgot one thing. Although we are pessimistic and measured as a people, we are not scared of anything. The remain vote was based on fear, the leave vote was based on balance of risk. We have indeed made the correct decision, and history will show this to be the case, of this I am absolutely convinced.

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