Victoria Proof Sovereigns

[TheGoldSovereign]

So generally I've looked at my sovereigns and almost all are matte, but a few i can recall having shiny fields. Now, i've always just taken these as better condition but now I think they are proofs?!

The reason for this revelation is one date I just archived, the coins are both not in great condition but very similar, one is clearly different. I've then checked the *new* marsh book, and it lists the date 1889 proof, R7 ! I think this is one, what do you think? I actually have 25+ of this date, and 2 of these proofs.

If so i need to go back through everything and dig out the others!

 

proof

normal

[Pete]

Well spotted - definite high contrast in the first picture.
What do you reckon a proof is worth in this condition compared to the regular bullion ?

[sovereignsteve]

Jubilee proofs other than 1887 are a bit of a mystery to my knowledge. They exist in a few dates and mints (mainly London) and I think some were struck using bullion dies as well as proof ones.
I think it was a time when patterns of various types were produced in very small numbers for whatever reasons.

I think it extremely unlikely you will have not one but two of these proofs as there are only a couple known to exist. I've never seen one or a photo of one.

I'm not convinced your photo shows a proof; the detail looks to be that of a normal bullion but perhaps on a proof-like planchet. What does the other side look like?
It is certainly different from the normal and worth investigating. It needs checking over by an expert house, maybe Baldwins but I would suggest taking it to the Royal Mint Museum.
I say "taking" as if genuine, it will be very rare and valuable.

 

[Ravinella]

Yea get it looked at by a real expert place as previous poster says...........Not to pour more water on the bonfire though there is very,very little in the literature about Proofs at this time and just my personal view but I fancy the lower picture to be a better finish sov than the top one,which I believe you label as the possible Proof.

Too me its pressing is way too crude and heavy, to be a Proof coin,just look at the whole of the horse,particularly it rear end,its just really banged out for want of of better phrase with very little care and  attention to detail.......For me that shows no indication of being a proof finish,I still dont think it is but I'd prefer the lower picture to be an attempt at a Proof pressing rather than the top one.

Truth is I have no idea of what I'm really talking about,just giving my opinion and as said above there is definitely a difference between the two so take it to the experts and come back on here and let us know the outcome as if it is what you hope it to be it will certainly be worth many thousands of Pounds of that there is no question..........1881 quoted at £19500 .............good luck

 

[TheGoldSovereign]

Yes I agree that it is very hard to determine when there are no pictures or literature anywhere and even the existence is questionable. 

The experts mentioned though are only as such due to the number of coins they've looked at right? I've looked at 1000s of sovereigns this week and have found many undocumented variations so far, and I've not even got to the shields yet!

It is very very difficult to photograph and capture what you can see with a coin in hand, there is a very clear difference in these coins so even if not a proof I will log it as a variation for now. I need to get through the bulk then return to the interesting ones.

Thanks as always for the comments, I'm sure I will have some more to show and discuss soon!

Edit: double checked and I made a mistake I don't have 2 of them just this 1

[sovereignsteve]

19 minutes ago, sg86 said:

The experts mentioned though are only as such due to the number of coins they've looked at right?

In a way but they also get to see and research the really good quality and rare ones. The museum have access to all the archived records, dies and goodness knows what else. They really are the last word on what is genuine or not.

20 minutes ago, sg86 said:

I've studied 1000s of sovereigns this week

All yours? Fricking hell!

[Ravinella]

1000s in a week,hmmmmmmmmmmmmm,

.I used to work as a valuation philatelist for a major stamp dealer in a previous life and he said never forget it " if I hadnt spent 2 hours studying a stamp minimum I had only looked at  the damn  thing."

Lets look at an hour/study period not 2  per sov

24 hours/day,7 days,/week =168  hours in a week or 1 hour spent  studying a  sov at  a time means you could study 168 sovs in a week with no breaks for food,,sleep  or  anything else,

""studied 1000s of sovs this week".................that is damn impresssive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[tbone]

14 minutes ago, Ravinella said:

1000s in a week,hmmmmmmmmmmmmm,

.I used to work as a valuation philatelist for a major stamp dealer in a previous life and he said never forget it " if I hadnt spent 2 hours studying a stamp minimum I had only looked at  the damn  thing."

Lets look at an hour/study period not 2  per sov

24 hours/day,7 days,/week =168  hours in a week or 1 hour spent  studying a  sov at  a time means you could study 168 sovs in a week with no breaks for food,,sleep  or  anything else,

""studied 1000s of sovs this week".................that is damn impresssive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I believe him.  If I had access to 1000 sovs I'd find the time to go through each one somehow.  I wouldn't take an hour/sov tho

[sovereignsteve]

Well if you want to become an expert, you need to spend more than a couple of minutes studying each coin, no matter how many you look at

[Ravinella]

you or I or anyone could go through them in a week but that isnt "STUDYING" them as if you are trying to find a rairity or a proof from a bullion or a forgery from a genuine........You telling me you could go through thousands of sovs in a week and pick out all the fakes,or the cracked plates,mint marks,shallow strikes,over strikes etc etc by just looking at them for 30 seconds each cos thats what you would have to do.

Can you g'tee to get all the horses tails right,length wise by just picking up one sov looking at it for a few seconds and then picking up another.........not a cat in hells chance.

You own and use a micrometer for instance in identifying sovereigns.If you do good cos you'll know what I'm on about.If you dont good also cos you'll understand the difference.

OP is talking here about identifying an extreme rarity by simply sifting through sov after sov by  giving them a glance one at a time.

Its as SS says go to Baldwins they will have access to sovs you and I will only ever be able to dream about......ie when are you going to get access to the Royal Mints Collection or The Queens collection which you would have to do to identify a rarity such as this.

MIxing up sifting through thousands of sovs and studying thousands of sovs  I'm afraid there is a huge difference the gulf of work needed between these two activiyties is phenomenal.............................happy and successful collecting

 

 

[tbone]

3 hours ago, sg86 said:

It is very very difficult to photograph and capture what you can see with a coin in hand, there is a very clear difference in these coins so even if not a proof I will log it as a variation for now

Your pics are really good.  I had a 1911 I hoped was a proof but my pics were horribly bad.  I recently purchased a digital microscope (10x to 200x) with a stand to take better photos and even video of my coins.  (Lighthouse).  Should be a fun project for me

[TheGoldSovereign]

@Ravinella Not sure why you took it so literally, i didn't mean that I've looked at each sovereign for an hour and didn't have the intention of calling myself an expert...... I've changed my post and replaced "studied" with "looked at" as I wouldn't wish to anger you.

I've been databasing and archiving recent acquisitions this week, so this is simply me finding the best grade for each date and variety, looking for new varieties etc. For sure I've had a very sore left shoulder where I sit in a certain position in front of the window to get the light hitting at the right angle

 

[TheGoldSovereign]

4 minutes ago, tbone said:

Your pics are really good.  I had a 1911 I hoped was a proof but my pics were horribly bad.  I recently purchased a digital microscope (10x to 200x) with a stand to take better photos and even video of my coins.  (Lighthouse).  Should be a fun project for me

Yea I've looked into microscopes actually, ones with USB also so you can hook them up to a screen and photo etc. Though all the ones i found had awful reviews and i expect a real decent one won't be on amazon!

[Ravinella]

NO problem SG I'm simply making the point that it is impossible to study 1000s of sovs in a week..........for the reason I said 168 max if you devote an hour to studying the coin, 24/7 dont forget so would starve to death as well.

Studying means what it says which SS points out Baldwins,Royal Mint Museum employ "experts " to go through all the archive material,photos,sketches etc which we poor old joe public will never get access to and that sort of access would be essential to identify a coin such as you are talking about. No need imo for you to have changed the wording of your post as it didnt anger me but it just reminded me of a situation whereby people often think they have had a good look or studied something when they in fact havent ,even started that process,not a personal comment,just making the point to the forum in general.

Anyway good hunting and I do sincerely hope you do take it to be looked at as,as I said previously, it is different and an expert would be able to give you a definitive answer.

Off topic but seeing as microscopes have been brought up Stanley Gibbons do an excellent piece of kit for stamps called Pro 10 Portable Digital Microscope at £250 but no idea if it is usable with coins....................

 

[Elements]

48 minutes ago, sg86 said:

Yea I've looked into microscopes actually, ones with USB also so you can hook them up to a screen and photo etc. Though all the ones i found had awful reviews and i expect a real decent one won't be on amazon!

Have a look into videos on YouTube for making your iPhone (or any phone with a decent camera) into a microscope. If you have an old laser pen take it apart and use the lens to stick directly in front of the camera- hey presto microscope! With the added ability to take photos. A stable stage is key though, any wobbles like using you hand to hold it and it won’t take good shots, it needs to be still. 

Something like this 

 

[tbone]

3 hours ago, sg86 said:

Yea I've looked into microscopes actually, ones with USB also so you can hook them up to a screen and photo etc. Though all the ones i found had awful reviews and i expect a real decent one won't be on amazon!

I ordered mine directly from Lighthouse (they have a location in the US which is great for me, but I think they're based in Germany and probably ship anywhere).  Its a bit pricey, but I'm hoping it works out well.  I'll upload some pics once I get time:

https://www.lighthouse.us/high-performance-usb-digital-microscope-10x-300x-magnification-5-0-megapixel.html

The stand:

https://www.lighthouse.us/stand-for-usb-digital-microscope-350827.html

[TheGoldSovereign]

@tbone Would really appreciate a review and some pics when you get the chance, I've looked a few of these but cheaper versions, so good to know Lighthouse make them!

[TheGoldSovereign]

So, I've done my own research and found out a little more on the 1889 proof sovereign, of which the coin pictured above is unlikely to be.

I've purchased the book by Wilson & Resmussen Titled "English pattern trial and proof coins in gold" (a task on it's own to acquire!), this is the only reference to the 1889 proof sovereign.

This sovereign is one of very few in the book not photographed, it contains a very basic description and notes nothing that differs from a normal sovereign.

This coin entered the book as it was noted from the "Nobleman" sale, in 1922 at Sotherby's london, lasting 5 days.

This sale contained the contents of Philip Ferrari de La Renotière world renowned collection, this guy was a true collector! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_von_Ferrary

It is impossible to know if this coin actually exists or not, maybe one day it will turn up again

 

quote from Steve Hill as to why the coin is listed in the latest Marsh revision - "All coins I have seen listed with a "Nobleman" provenance be they Sovereigns, Crowns or Farthing (or any other denomination as a proof or pattern) has proven to be accurately catalogued by Sotheby in 1922 so as Wilson and Rasmussen listed them in their 2001 publication we have taken that at face value and listed them in the Marsh revision."

 

[Murph]

You could always get a wild stereo microscope.  Very well made things.  I think Leica bought them out at some point so you may find a Leica badged version a little cheaper.  I think Leica also took over the Bausch and Lomb Stereozoom range but you'd probably find the B&L version a bit cheaper.  Not quite Wild heerbrugg quality but still good.