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richatthecroft

Platinum Premium Member
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  1. Like
    richatthecroft got a reaction from watchesandwhisky in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    I agree, nothing conclusive in what I have cited- but eBay is by far the ‘go to’ marketplace to flip coins- and the amount of 2022 Sovereigns flipped since release is very few.
    I acknowledge that the ‘flipping’ phenomenon has existed for ever- but my observation is that the flipping phenomenon came to the forefront and has escalated from the release of the 2018 Snowman 50p issue- there were hundreds for sale, if not thousands! Initially making inordinate money.  And the phenomenon escalated from there- the 50 years of the 50p was another, then the Gruffalo, and so it went on through to the Brexit coins, Music Legends, Bonds etc. etc. until we hit the hiatus of The Three Graces!
    The enduring Sovereign, issued year in and year out doesn’t appear to have the short term flipping appeal- it’s a steadier hold and longer term play. 
  2. Like
    richatthecroft got a reaction from R33f in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    I think @TheShinyStuff has covered the answer to this question:
     
     
     
    I think Leon, you are well aware of the price premiums achieved of the previous 5 Special Reverse Modern Sovereigns- a reminder of them- 1989, 2002, 2005, 2012 & 2017- I've lost touch with exact current prices achieved but from memory of the last sales I have seen here, auctions & retail dealer sales, they go as follows- (lowest price Raw examples, highest graded 70):
    1989:  £1100- £2k
    2002: £600- £750
    2005: £600- £750
    2012: £950-  £1200. (remarkably (and likely an outlier) one achieved £2300 yesterday at the CC Auction it was PCGS PR 70 DCAM First Strike) 
    2017: £895- £1150
     
    Is there any evidence to say that the 2022 Sovereign won't be as good a long term hold?  Or that people don't have confidence in holding them?  It was the fastest sell out of any year date proof Special Reverse Sovereign and the mintage is on a par (or less) than any of the previous Special Reverses- and 98 Pages of chat in this very thread tells quite a story.  
     
    Here's some more evidence that the 2022 will perhaps, do ok long term:
     
    I did this exercise on the 20/11/2021 and repeated it just now.
    Using the search term '2022 Sovereign' on eBay on Monday 29/11/2021:
     
    The amount of 2022 Sovereigns for sale (all denominations and sets) is currently surprisingly few, given the amount of coins/ sets issued- there's currently only 41 sales posts using the search term described above.
     
    In terms of sales- using the same search terms, here's the action so far- surprisingly few sales at 55.  Figures not quite accurate as some sales include 'best offer accepted':
     
    5 Coin set- 5 Sales ranging between £5795 through £6995- Average sale price- £6348
    4 Coin Set- 2 Sales ranging between £3250 through £3750- Average sale price- £3500
    3 Coin set- 7 Sales ranging between £1195 through £1650- Average sale price- £1391
    Sovereign- 27 Sales ranging between £699 through £885- Average sale price- £762
    Half Sovereign-  13 Sales ranging between £375 through £486- Average sale price- £416
    Sovereign/ Half Sovereign combo- 1 Sale at £1300
     
    The Opportunity takers still don't appear to be out force.
  3. Haha
    richatthecroft got a reaction from TheShinyStuff in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    Better than having non-buyers remorse 😉 
  4. Like
    richatthecroft reacted to Foster88 in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    Exactly. I’ve read your post tonight and yesterday evening and I don’t understand why some still think the 2022 Proof sovereign will be a bit of a ‘flash in the pan’.
    Some like the reverse design, some don’t. But regardless, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to buy and own a sovereign or a collection of sovereigns of any denomination that celebrates a monarch of 70 years.
    I think the bullion sovereign will be very popular regardless but especially with those looking back with hindsight. Dare I also say it, might this be more popular perhaps than the 1989 sovereign.
    A close contender or maybe a draw.
    Only time will tell.
  5. Like
    richatthecroft got a reaction from NewCoins in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    I'm not sure the upcoming release of the Gothic Crown is skewing the picture- at least not in a negative way- if anything, its remarkable that the RM sold out the 2022 issue in just a few days despite the impending hot release.  Again testament to the allure of the Sovereign.  
    I do think the Gothic release was never going to dent sales of the Sovereign too much, lets face it- there were less than 400 Gold Three Graces/ Una's- therefore, most people can only target the Silver as a realistic option due to the limited mintage of the Gold.   Owning the Silver Gothic isn't (too) prohibitive in terms of price point.   
     
    I think what's interesting about the 2017 release in comparison to the 2022 issue was the price of Gold at the time of their respective issues.
    For example:
    The 2017 Sovereign issue was a 96% premium over Gold Price- (Gold Price was around the £1040/ oz) 
    The 2022 Sovereign issue was only an 80% premium over Gold- (Gold price was £1384/oz)
    I'm pretty sure that investing in a 2017 was a much more difficult ask, as compared to this years issue- I would say that the premiums asked for the 2017 Pistrucci Sovereign slowed down the sales somewhat. 
     
  6. Like
    richatthecroft got a reaction from Spanishsilver in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    I think @TheShinyStuff has covered the answer to this question:
     
     
     
    I think Leon, you are well aware of the price premiums achieved of the previous 5 Special Reverse Modern Sovereigns- a reminder of them- 1989, 2002, 2005, 2012 & 2017- I've lost touch with exact current prices achieved but from memory of the last sales I have seen here, auctions & retail dealer sales, they go as follows- (lowest price Raw examples, highest graded 70):
    1989:  £1100- £2k
    2002: £600- £750
    2005: £600- £750
    2012: £950-  £1200. (remarkably (and likely an outlier) one achieved £2300 yesterday at the CC Auction it was PCGS PR 70 DCAM First Strike) 
    2017: £895- £1150
     
    Is there any evidence to say that the 2022 Sovereign won't be as good a long term hold?  Or that people don't have confidence in holding them?  It was the fastest sell out of any year date proof Special Reverse Sovereign and the mintage is on a par (or less) than any of the previous Special Reverses- and 98 Pages of chat in this very thread tells quite a story.  
     
    Here's some more evidence that the 2022 will perhaps, do ok long term:
     
    I did this exercise on the 20/11/2021 and repeated it just now.
    Using the search term '2022 Sovereign' on eBay on Monday 29/11/2021:
     
    The amount of 2022 Sovereigns for sale (all denominations and sets) is currently surprisingly few, given the amount of coins/ sets issued- there's currently only 41 sales posts using the search term described above.
     
    In terms of sales- using the same search terms, here's the action so far- surprisingly few sales at 55.  Figures not quite accurate as some sales include 'best offer accepted':
     
    5 Coin set- 5 Sales ranging between £5795 through £6995- Average sale price- £6348
    4 Coin Set- 2 Sales ranging between £3250 through £3750- Average sale price- £3500
    3 Coin set- 7 Sales ranging between £1195 through £1650- Average sale price- £1391
    Sovereign- 27 Sales ranging between £699 through £885- Average sale price- £762
    Half Sovereign-  13 Sales ranging between £375 through £486- Average sale price- £416
    Sovereign/ Half Sovereign combo- 1 Sale at £1300
     
    The Opportunity takers still don't appear to be out force.
  7. Like
    richatthecroft got a reaction from westminstrel in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    Better than having non-buyers remorse 😉 
  8. Haha
    richatthecroft got a reaction from Roy in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    Better than having non-buyers remorse 😉 
  9. Super Like
    richatthecroft reacted to Roy in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    and I'd do it all over again! 
     
  10. Like
    richatthecroft got a reaction from Roy in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    Thanks for this Roy, I've edited my earlier post as I had inaccurately cited the Gold Price into November 2016- and as you point out- the release was in late October- Gold was higher in the October so the Premium you paid was a mere +96% over Spot 😂
  11. Thanks
    richatthecroft reacted to Roy in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    A very good point, often missed!
    I bought both the half and full sovereign on the 27th October 2016 for £245 and £430 respectively.
    I also bought two shield sovereigns the same week for £245 a piece.
    My spreadsheet says gold was £33.43/gram at that time.
    The 2017s were pricey! 
  12. Like
    richatthecroft got a reaction from SilverMike in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    I'm not sure the upcoming release of the Gothic Crown is skewing the picture- at least not in a negative way- if anything, its remarkable that the RM sold out the 2022 issue in just a few days despite the impending hot release.  Again testament to the allure of the Sovereign.  
    I do think the Gothic release was never going to dent sales of the Sovereign too much, lets face it- there were less than 400 Gold Three Graces/ Una's- therefore, most people can only target the Silver as a realistic option due to the limited mintage of the Gold.   Owning the Silver Gothic isn't (too) prohibitive in terms of price point.   
     
    I think what's interesting about the 2017 release in comparison to the 2022 issue was the price of Gold at the time of their respective issues.
    For example:
    The 2017 Sovereign issue was a 96% premium over Gold Price- (Gold Price was around the £1040/ oz) 
    The 2022 Sovereign issue was only an 80% premium over Gold- (Gold price was £1384/oz)
    I'm pretty sure that investing in a 2017 was a much more difficult ask, as compared to this years issue- I would say that the premiums asked for the 2017 Pistrucci Sovereign slowed down the sales somewhat. 
     
  13. Like
    richatthecroft got a reaction from SilverMike in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    Agreed.  But the premiums over Gold were much higher.
  14. Thanks
    richatthecroft got a reaction from westminstrel in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    Agreed.  But the premiums over Gold were much higher.
  15. Like
    richatthecroft got a reaction from westminstrel in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    I'm not sure the upcoming release of the Gothic Crown is skewing the picture- at least not in a negative way- if anything, its remarkable that the RM sold out the 2022 issue in just a few days despite the impending hot release.  Again testament to the allure of the Sovereign.  
    I do think the Gothic release was never going to dent sales of the Sovereign too much, lets face it- there were less than 400 Gold Three Graces/ Una's- therefore, most people can only target the Silver as a realistic option due to the limited mintage of the Gold.   Owning the Silver Gothic isn't (too) prohibitive in terms of price point.   
     
    I think what's interesting about the 2017 release in comparison to the 2022 issue was the price of Gold at the time of their respective issues.
    For example:
    The 2017 Sovereign issue was a 96% premium over Gold Price- (Gold Price was around the £1040/ oz) 
    The 2022 Sovereign issue was only an 80% premium over Gold- (Gold price was £1384/oz)
    I'm pretty sure that investing in a 2017 was a much more difficult ask, as compared to this years issue- I would say that the premiums asked for the 2017 Pistrucci Sovereign slowed down the sales somewhat. 
     
  16. Like
    richatthecroft reacted to westminstrel in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    The prices seem so cheap in retrospect - wish I had more funds then. 😭
  17. Thanks
    richatthecroft reacted to westminstrel in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    @richatthecroft- The issue price of the 2017 Premium 3-coin proof set (Double Sovereign, Sovereign, and Half-sovereign) was £1,450.
  18. Like
    richatthecroft got a reaction from dikefalos in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    I'm sure someone might be able to dredge up some information of how the 2017 Pistrucci issues performed post release on eBay.
    My observations of them are in keeping with this threat in late 2017:
     
     
    There was a 'drop' in price in late 2017- reset back to release price for the Individual issues of the Quarter were offered at around £150 and the Half's £250- £275 sold as raw coins.  
    The 2017 Sovereign remained over and above release price by a minimum of 10% and more prevalent at 20% over the release price raw well into 2018 but have steadily increased since spring 2020 and have taken off since the turn of 2021. 
    The Piedfort (I believe the 2017 was the first Piedfort issue) was not too well received and the prices were dormant over release price until spring 2020- 2021 have seen these rapidly rise in price.  
    I do know that I bought a 5 Pound 2017 Bu in March 2020 for £10 less than release price! and in keeping with the above, have risen sharply since. 
    The 2017 3 coin (Sov through to Quarter) set was available  on the secondary market between £900 and £1k up until last spring but the 3 coin (2 Sovereign to Half) set and the 5 Coin set have always kept good premiums until the spring of 2020 and then came the steady re-rate and this year, there's being the take off to todays prices.
    I stand corrected, but the issue prices for the 2017's were as follows:
    Quarter: £150
    Half: £250
    Sovereign: £480
    Piedfort: £800 ish
    SOTD: £500 ish
    5 Sovereign Bu: £1785
    3 Coin Set- Sov to Quarter: £750
    3 Coin Set- 2 Sov- Half:  £1450 (thanks @westminstrel)
    5 Coin set: £3295
    There were no 4 coin (2 Sov to Quarter) Sets issued. 
    https://agaunews.com/2017-sovereign-recreates-200yr-old-pistrucci-original/  (thanks @westminstrel for the link from a previous thread).
     
  19. Like
    richatthecroft got a reaction from goldhunter in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    I'm sure someone might be able to dredge up some information of how the 2017 Pistrucci issues performed post release on eBay.
    My observations of them are in keeping with this threat in late 2017:
     
     
    There was a 'drop' in price in late 2017- reset back to release price for the Individual issues of the Quarter were offered at around £150 and the Half's £250- £275 sold as raw coins.  
    The 2017 Sovereign remained over and above release price by a minimum of 10% and more prevalent at 20% over the release price raw well into 2018 but have steadily increased since spring 2020 and have taken off since the turn of 2021. 
    The Piedfort (I believe the 2017 was the first Piedfort issue) was not too well received and the prices were dormant over release price until spring 2020- 2021 have seen these rapidly rise in price.  
    I do know that I bought a 5 Pound 2017 Bu in March 2020 for £10 less than release price! and in keeping with the above, have risen sharply since. 
    The 2017 3 coin (Sov through to Quarter) set was available  on the secondary market between £900 and £1k up until last spring but the 3 coin (2 Sovereign to Half) set and the 5 Coin set have always kept good premiums until the spring of 2020 and then came the steady re-rate and this year, there's being the take off to todays prices.
    I stand corrected, but the issue prices for the 2017's were as follows:
    Quarter: £150
    Half: £250
    Sovereign: £480
    Piedfort: £800 ish
    SOTD: £500 ish
    5 Sovereign Bu: £1785
    3 Coin Set- Sov to Quarter: £750
    3 Coin Set- 2 Sov- Half:  £1450 (thanks @westminstrel)
    5 Coin set: £3295
    There were no 4 coin (2 Sov to Quarter) Sets issued. 
    https://agaunews.com/2017-sovereign-recreates-200yr-old-pistrucci-original/  (thanks @westminstrel for the link from a previous thread).
     
  20. Like
    richatthecroft got a reaction from Spanishsilver in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    I agree, nothing conclusive in what I have cited- but eBay is by far the ‘go to’ marketplace to flip coins- and the amount of 2022 Sovereigns flipped since release is very few.
    I acknowledge that the ‘flipping’ phenomenon has existed for ever- but my observation is that the flipping phenomenon came to the forefront and has escalated from the release of the 2018 Snowman 50p issue- there were hundreds for sale, if not thousands! Initially making inordinate money.  And the phenomenon escalated from there- the 50 years of the 50p was another, then the Gruffalo, and so it went on through to the Brexit coins, Music Legends, Bonds etc. etc. until we hit the hiatus of The Three Graces!
    The enduring Sovereign, issued year in and year out doesn’t appear to have the short term flipping appeal- it’s a steadier hold and longer term play. 
  21. Like
    richatthecroft got a reaction from SilverJacks in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    I'm sure someone might be able to dredge up some information of how the 2017 Pistrucci issues performed post release on eBay.
    My observations of them are in keeping with this threat in late 2017:
     
     
    There was a 'drop' in price in late 2017- reset back to release price for the Individual issues of the Quarter were offered at around £150 and the Half's £250- £275 sold as raw coins.  
    The 2017 Sovereign remained over and above release price by a minimum of 10% and more prevalent at 20% over the release price raw well into 2018 but have steadily increased since spring 2020 and have taken off since the turn of 2021. 
    The Piedfort (I believe the 2017 was the first Piedfort issue) was not too well received and the prices were dormant over release price until spring 2020- 2021 have seen these rapidly rise in price.  
    I do know that I bought a 5 Pound 2017 Bu in March 2020 for £10 less than release price! and in keeping with the above, have risen sharply since. 
    The 2017 3 coin (Sov through to Quarter) set was available  on the secondary market between £900 and £1k up until last spring but the 3 coin (2 Sovereign to Half) set and the 5 Coin set have always kept good premiums until the spring of 2020 and then came the steady re-rate and this year, there's being the take off to todays prices.
    I stand corrected, but the issue prices for the 2017's were as follows:
    Quarter: £150
    Half: £250
    Sovereign: £480
    Piedfort: £800 ish
    SOTD: £500 ish
    5 Sovereign Bu: £1785
    3 Coin Set- Sov to Quarter: £750
    3 Coin Set- 2 Sov- Half:  £1450 (thanks @westminstrel)
    5 Coin set: £3295
    There were no 4 coin (2 Sov to Quarter) Sets issued. 
    https://agaunews.com/2017-sovereign-recreates-200yr-old-pistrucci-original/  (thanks @westminstrel for the link from a previous thread).
     
  22. Thanks
    richatthecroft reacted to SilverJacks in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    Appreciate you sharing your experience @richatthecroft. In an ideal world, It would be nice to compare the ebay listings/sales from the first few weeks of the 2017 release to what we have now. Although there's so many variables, not least the upcoming gothic crown release potentially skewing the picture.
  23. Thanks
    richatthecroft reacted to AndrewSL76 in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    You write really well. I always enjoy reading and learning from your posts, but this one was especially interesting. Totally agree with everything too, which helps!!
  24. Like
    richatthecroft got a reaction from westminstrel in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    I agree, nothing conclusive in what I have cited- but eBay is by far the ‘go to’ marketplace to flip coins- and the amount of 2022 Sovereigns flipped since release is very few.
    I acknowledge that the ‘flipping’ phenomenon has existed for ever- but my observation is that the flipping phenomenon came to the forefront and has escalated from the release of the 2018 Snowman 50p issue- there were hundreds for sale, if not thousands! Initially making inordinate money.  And the phenomenon escalated from there- the 50 years of the 50p was another, then the Gruffalo, and so it went on through to the Brexit coins, Music Legends, Bonds etc. etc. until we hit the hiatus of The Three Graces!
    The enduring Sovereign, issued year in and year out doesn’t appear to have the short term flipping appeal- it’s a steadier hold and longer term play. 
  25. Super Like
    richatthecroft reacted to Mtaybar in 2022 Sovereign design revealed?   
    I have other photos but I realise this isn't the place to post. Just thought it would be nice for a few pics to change it up a little bit



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