coppernut reacted to KevinFlynn in Investing in Silver
Let me see, if I can formulate some basics...
On coins and bars and value over melt
. the buy and sell value of any precious metal item will be influenced by recognition and trust (any value over melt, that is)
. to create that recognition value, precious metals are either put into specific form, like elaborate coins, whose design is in return guaranteed by the creator, or into bar form (basically just 'lumps of metal'), guaranteed by the brand of the producing company (can come certified, e.g. LBMA)
. governmental minted coins may carry a higher trust factor than those of private mints, highly recognizable private mints will in return carry a higher trust factor than lesser known mints
. recognition will also be influenced by your geographical region - some items will be easily recognized worldwide, while others may only be trusted regionally.
. a precious metal coin, if not of historical and/or numismatic value, is basically just a round elaborately designed 'bar' - however precious metal coins are usually carrying a higher cost over spot than straight up bars to take into account the minting effort - however again this premium will usually be also reflected in the sales price
. other than that in general the larger the amount of precious metal in a given item the smaller the premium over spot (not considering collector's items)
. then there are items that carry a certain collector's value on top of the intrinsic metal value or general recognition or trust value - these may be straight collector's series items, like Queen's Beasts, or (australian) Lunar coins - anything with changing design and low mintage
. or there may be historical pieces like former currency coins, going back to ancient greece (or even farther) - we're entering the field of numismatics here - or even specific bars (e.g. Rothschild bars)
On coins specifically
Bullion investor coins are basically not collector items per se, though they can turn out to be. And there are coins specifically targeting the collector's market.
On selling precious metals
The worst case scenario is always melt price, which may be down to 80% of spot. You will however always be able to realize that value at least. To realize a higher value you need to fulfill the criteria your potential buyers would set in regards to recognition and trust and collector's value. This is where your exit strategy comes in. If you are willing to settle for melt from the start (can be a plan), you just have to buy for weight, i.e. the most precious metal content for your money, which may include any non-seller at discount, silverware or just mishappen blobs of metal. You can however nearly guarantee more value by selecting and handling your precious metal items carefully. For example it is very unlikely that you will have to sell an unblemished government minted coin for melt. Likewise is is very unlikely that you will have to sell a Queen's Beasts Lion for spot (more likely a multiple of spot).
The rest is down to your imagination of what could happen. Exchanging your fiat money for wealth preserving precious metals now to exchange back to a new currency after a crash is a good intent. If you think that society will turn out to be somewhat the same after a crash, you can also heavily go into collector's or numismatic items. If you are imagining a 'Mad Max' style apocalyptic world after a crash, you should better avoid anything that would draw additional value from being a luxury item (like collectibles).
Please keep in mind that this is a very broad overview and there will be exceptions to the rule in any case.
coppernut reacted to AuricGoldfinger in How much silver/gold to own to be classified as rich or upper class
You can be upper class and poor, working class and rich. Whichever you are be proud of where you come from and understand money doesn’t buy class. Don’t worry about being considered rich. Work out what YOU need personally to feel well off and set about achieving it. I know people who earn £100k + a year with no assets and don’t own a stick of furniture. I also know people who earn around £20k who own their own home, eat out and holiday as much as they like. They aren’t travelling the world or living lavishly but they are happy and live within their means. Wealth is all subjective to a point.
coppernut reacted to sixgun in Bars vs Coins
Johnson Matthey does not exist anymore. They are a collectible brand. Bars in the Europe carry VAT in all jurisdictions - you cannot buy retail bars with other than full VAT.
You would expect to see higher prices compared with a current silver coin in vast numbers.
Bars have some advantages over coins but i would not say they hold their value better.
If you are starting out at this time, i would go for cheap silver - bars or coins. Buy weight. Get some weight of silver under your belt, say 500oz and then maybe get more choosy.
coppernut reacted to RoughDog in Bars vs Coins
Lets say someone purchases a monster box of Brits cheap. goldsilver.be
TransferWise says it's £6,729
That's £13.458 per ounce (not including delivery).
Silver spot is £11.42 Dealer is currently paying £11.64
So dealer is paying about 2% above spot.
To break even spot will need to rise to £13.19.
That's a 15.5% increase in spot price.
Best case scenario / cheapest purchase price.
Alternatively sell privately, all 500 ounces.
coppernut reacted to sixgun in Bars vs Coins
One of the reasons i have been attracted to bars has been milk spot on so many coins these days.
Now if you buy Canadian Maples at good prices knowing they are likely to spot, that is fine - you need to have coins like this in a diversified stack. They are 1oz pieces of silver at a lower premium. Now buy some other Canadian coins at a premium price and then they get milk spot - it is gutting. No such problem with bars. There are some bars i would not hold other than with gloves but most you can get hold off with your bare hands and love them.
coppernut reacted to RoughDog in Bars vs Coins
Yeah, I don't like the idea of big coins too. 10oz queens beast is a bit too big for my liking. I was tempted to collect them at one time. Glad I didn't buy any now as my thoughts and ideas keep changing.
IMHO. The coins are more collectable (1 oz and 2 oz) and better to sell privately. More likely to gain a premium gain due to collectability.
Even tho I can't afford any new coins I plan to buy the 2019 panda when available.
Bars are: -
+ Less trouble to store / take care of. No milk spotting etc.
+ Easier to sell large amount of. 1 kilo bar is one unit of sale as opposed to selling 31 ounce coins.
- More expensive to buy than some coins.
- unlikely to gain any collector premium, therefore tied more to spot price only.
coppernut got a reaction from StackSellRepeat in Bars vs Coins
Good Afternoon All,
Is there anyone that could explain, why it is that silver 1oz bars appear to hold their money better than say a silver 1oz coin?
To give an example:
Britannia @ £14.50 v Johnson Mathey 1oz 22.00
I'm looking at this from a weight stacking point only, am I over generalizing?
Are bars more collectable?
Any advice or comments?
coppernut reacted to Danny-boy in My Stacker Story.......
Not sure how interesting this will be, but I thought I'd share the story of my stacking journey over the last 6 years or so.
It all started 6 years ago, as I mentioned. I can't remember how it started, but I can only assume it was a bored eBay search that drew me to my first 1oz coin. I believe it was an older maple.
At this point, I'd probably be best to describe myself a little. I'm impulsive, easily bored, change my mind often and am a born "collector". That'll become clear though as I continue....
The first maple lit a fire, heavy, shiny and substantial to hold, proper treasure. If memory serves, in a short time I had about 30 different year and privy maples in my collection. Now I'm not sure what happened next, but I sold them all to fund another "master plan", not metals related. As soon as they were sold, I missed them so collection number 2 began.
Collection number 2 was all about world crowns from different countries. I had about 40 which was a really nice collection in an album. Then I stumbled across a 5 reichsmark from the Germany Nazi era on eBay. I bought it, and fell in love. So on with those. I collected an ADAM set (all dates, all mints). This was a great achievement and I was so chuffed.
Then I chanced on a cheap (cheap then, not now) 1oz Britannia. It arrived and I was smitten with the design. I'm sure you can guess what's coming next....
I got an offer I couldn't refuse on the crowns & reichsmark collection. So I sold them all, with the intention of getting a date run of Britannias together. This is my only "stacking regret" - ever since the day I sold them, I missed the reichsmark collection. Still do now, but that's a story for another day.
As an aside, it was around this time that a few of us UK stackers chatting on an Australian forum managed to talk ChrisSilver into starting this forum, and we all put a lot of work into making it the fantastic place it is today, thanks Chris.
The date run of britannias started when silver was at around £23 (distant memory I know). Got a date run together but with duplicates, so I went for two runs but ended up with three. This is where the proper collecting started, buying lots of 1oz coins. 50oz became 100, 100 became 200, eventually 200 became 450oz. This was mostly comprised of date runs, 1/2, 1 & 2oz lunars, run of kooks & koalas, proofs, high reliefs etc. A really good collectors hoard.
Below is a photo of the stack at around 350oz, I didn't take any more after that before I started selling.
My long term target was 520oz of silver to enable me to sell 1oz a week for the first 10 years of retirement.
At this point storage was becoming a big issue. I'm lucky enough to have a friend in the jewellery trade with a big safe, in which he allowed me to keep my entire stack. His business was expanding though, as was the physical size of my stack, but his safe remained the same size. I could tell things were tight, but he assured me it was not a problem.
I had often thought about gold, and had owned very little during my stacking journey, but never did anything about it. That is, until I bought my first sovereign. Although a tad disappointing when I received it, being used to 1oz silver coins, it was exciting to hold something so small that was worth (at the time) around £200. My silver stack £/oz had always annoyed me, hovering around the £25 mark, so I decided to sell some premium silver to fund the purchase of more sovereigns.
To cut a long story short, and 8 months later, I had sold my entire silver stack and ended up with 55 sovereigns. No more storage issues as my entire stack now fitted inside a smartie tube, and would be easily sold on through the likes of HGM, Atkinsons, eBay or the forum. I was very careful with my gold purchases, and had a £779/oz average. Spot has dropped recently, but still a very respectable average in my opinion.
Below is a picture at 48 sovereigns, I didn't take another picture before I started selling.
But, true to form, my mind changed. I missed the exposure to silver, which in my opinion has more scope for a meteoric rise than gold. So I decided to sell some sovereigns and get back some silver, although keeping a very close eye on my silver £/oz, a very close eye indeed. I didn't want to fall into the "collector" trap again, and I also didn't want to have the pain of selling a large amount of individual ounces in the future to get out of the game.
So this took me to larger coins. Generally lower £/oz and easier to liquidate a kilo coin than 32 single ounces. Less profit to be had, granted, but the eye on the average would sort that. I was very strict in my purchasing, and I have now arrived at 520oz (my original target) of silver for an average of £11.75/oz. Thankfully it didn't take the sale of all my sovereigns to get there, and I ended up with 25 of them also (£763/oz average).
I'll post a pic up of my silver stack next week when the last few kilo's and 10oz coins arrive from STG.
So 450oz of semi-numi silver eventually turned into 520oz of bullion, and 25 sovereigns. And at very respectable cost averages I think.
The silver stack is now wholly comprised of kilo coins and 10oz coins (all Perth Mint), and fill a shoe box slightly larger than a monster box. Much less intrusive in my friends safe, which I'm very pleased about.
This has been by far my most favourite hobby, and a fantastic method of saving money into a tangible asset, which I hope will assist me in my retirement. I'm only in my late 30's, so retirement is a while away yet, but I like pre-planning. Increasing my pension contribution % every year should also help, and I have been doing that for some time now.
I'm not quite sure where I'll go with my stacking journey now, don't really want more silver (that's getting sealed in a box and left for a long time now) so I may possibly increase the gold stack, or take a little stacking holiday, but I'm sure it will come to me in a dream sometime soon.
I don't know why I felt compelled to write my story, but I hope it is interesting to some and maybe it will provide comfort to others that feel they wish to change direction with their stack - it is possible, and I have done it many times!!!!
Thanks for reading, if you managed to make it this far.
coppernut reacted to HawkHybrid in Is Royal Mints legal tender promise worthless?
I lend £20 interest free to the royal mint and in return
I get this silver token. later on I cash in my silver token
for my original £20 which now buys me less due to
inflation. I don't see how the royal mint can claim they
are losing out?
coppernut reacted to ChrisSIlver in Would you like these new forums?
A member has PM'd me to suggest a separate forum for Pandas. A while ago some other members were also after a separate forum for Sovereigns.
If there is enough demand we will create the following forums, probably under a section titled something like 'Specific Collectors Forums' which will probably appear after the 'Precious Metals' group.
Pandas & Chinese Medals Sovereigns Lunar
If 100 or more people like this topic. The above forums will be introduced.
coppernut reacted to goldbones in Sovereign, gold per ounce
Or multiply the £ spot price of gold by 0.2354 so you know what the spot price of a sovereign is to start with.
So right now gold is £706 x 0.2354= £166.19 <----sovereign spot price.
Its easier to see how much a sovereign margin over spot is that way because you can easily see that £1.66 is 1% so for instance say a sovereign is £176 well, its £10 over so: 10 /1.66= 6 so 6 percent over spot.