Scottsdales 1oz Bu Ghana leopard mix up

[sjjma]

It is a pretty cool coin. Comes sealed to the mint packaging.

[metallica73]

Much better than the picture. Are you not taking it out of the packaging to see the obverse?

[metallica73]

14 minutes ago, sjjma said:

There are some in stock again at SD billion for less than $21. Says won't ship until after July 21. Only concern there is that they might not know the mix up yet and are planning on shipping the 5 cedi coin maybe? otherwise that's a great deal!

I'm almost certain those are the 5 Cedi coins and they're unaware. They don't even mention the denomination (they still have mintage at 50k)

Whereas goldsilver.be are aware and have a similar shipping date for the 5 Cedi - July 20

http://goldsilver.be/en/home/1280-1-oz-silver-5-cedis-ghana-leopard-2017.html

 

[Gav]

It's important to know and make the distinction it's not a coin error. The physical coin doesn't feature a minting error, like for example if they had spelt and minted Ghana wrong. It is an error by the mint themselves in the denomination of the coin. It was too high. And we can guess it might even have been a problem with the license terms granted by the Ghanaian government, who knows? So this was an administration decision to withdraw the full mintage of that denomination. The very act of doing that creates a variation of this bullion coin (because they are re-issuing in full with a small denomination). Which is where the interest in it comes in. If they had left the whole 50,000 original run alone, and not done anything, there would be no story here. Apart from a footnote noticing the face value is greater than than the silver content.
Graders could never assign a label that indicates anything unusual about the coin itself. Likely it will just be labelled the 100 Cedis Ghana Leopard.

I am convinced that this is a mint error coin, even if we put the denomination aside, the dies used to make the coins that I have received are made from different die sizes. What I deduce from my measurements, the obverse of the 100 Cedi had a die size that was about 39.1mm and the reverse has a die size of 38.2mm. This caused a uneven reeded edge that varies from 3.8mm to 3.2mm approximately.

I have been in contact with APMEX and Scottsdale mint. They have avoid some of my questions but I'm sure that these emails have effect the description of the web listing. No one has stated that the coin is an error or not.

I am not sure if this is a purposely caused error or a real booboo and they don't want to admit to it.

One of the issues that I raised is that the Bank of Ghana issued a statement that 30, 100 and 200 Cedi denominations is not a legal tender?

The following is the statement from the Bank of Ghana:
The Bank wishes to inform the general public that the only denominations of the Ghana Cedi in circulation and are legal tender remain the following:

Notes:
GH¢50, GH¢20, GH¢10, GH¢5, GH¢2, GH¢1

Coins:
GH¢1, 50Gp, 20Gp, 10Gp, 5Gp, 1Gp

Scottsdale said that they have two programs 100 Cedi denomination with a mint of 5,000 and 50,000 for the five Cedi program. So if there are two programs are they implying that this is not an error? If so this still doesn't explain the raised and uneven edge. The story why that they changed it and now come out saying that the first of a series has two programs is beyond me.

APMEX did confirm that the 100 Cedis is a legal tender value.

Also if this is not a mint error then the dies would have been the same size and this is clearly not the case when you closely inspect the coin. There is much work involved in making coin dies especially with this amount of details and overlooking a difference in the sizes for the two dies would be a horrendous mistake. The die sizes weren't the same size and just that would make this is a mule type error.

As to address the face value, I bought my coins for $21.75 and that is less than what the legal tender value is.

My problem with this is that the people of Ghana have a history where they suffered from currency counterfeiting which resulted in hyperinflation. Since the mint and APMEX may hold to the fact that it is legal tender might be because if they state publicly that it is not, they they would be admitting to counterfeiting and that would be a huge issue in the international criminal court, though if they have the approval of the government of Ghana then there should not be any issue though the face value is still very unusual.

There are serious international laws about counterfeiting currencies that are taken very seriously as what is stopping a mint from issuing $100 trillion denomination coin? Maybe Trump should issue 1 coin and pay back the US Debit.

[sjjma]

I haven't decided if Ill take it off the cardboard package... I probably will. I guess if I ever sold it I'd have to anyways just as proof its actually the 100 Cedi version. I ordered a few more anyways hoping to get a strip of 5 of them, which I guess is how they come from the mint - with the last of the 5 on each strip showing the obverse. Nice that they come packages in capsules already. 

On SD bullion the picture shows the 100 cedi coin and it mentions in the description but I still have a feeling also that its going be the 5 Cedi coin... As tempting as it is I think Im going to hold off.

[swAgger]

@Gav Thanks for sharing some good stuff. That's an interesting one about the die size discrepancy you've noticed. Weird that could have happened. It's not as if either of the dies could have come from another issue past or present. Both dies being specifically made for this coin. All adds to it, for me. Let's hope for a hat trick of mistakes if someone can find one more. Was that your youtube video linked by someone earlier in the thread?

As for Scottsdale telling you they have two programs running, and it's all part of the agenda, i said they would.

I found some further clarification from the mint here  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdFl__NlOpA

 

[Rhyseyson]

Kind of wish i got more than 3 now

[Gav]

[mention=3717]Gav[/mention] Thanks for sharing some good stuff. That's an interesting one about the die size discrepancy you've noticed. Weird that could have happened. It's not as if either of the dies could have come from another issue past or present. Both dies being specifically made for this coin. All adds to it, for me. Let's hope for a hat trick of mistakes if someone can find one more. Was that your youtube video linked by someone earlier in the thread?
As for Scottsdale telling you they have two programs running, and it's all part of the agenda, i said they would.
I found some further clarification from the mint here 

 

Your link that you shared is very fitting I think you are right, the mint might be a bit annoyed with me and would like to let everyone think that there is nothing to see here.

Yes that is my video. I haven't made any other videos before and wished that the quality was better. Hopefully someone will make a better video with 4K that has more subs.

I made the video because I want the story to get out about this coin and so hopefully that way I might be able to one day make some money off my silver because there seams to to be no chance that I will make any profits off spot price as long as there is a paper market.

There is a YouTuber "Shadow Stack", that has quiet a following on YouTube, that I have been in contact with and hopefully he got a few while they were available. From his video's I get that he has a talent for trading as he is good at cutting losses and capitalizing on his gains. I do believe that if he showcased the coin and highlighted this coin's flaws, game over and then there is a good chance that the coin can go viral. Then there will be a hype to get them, this initial hype has a big role in what the future premium will be.

I started watching this coin closely when APMEX had about 2,200 left. What I did notice was that they sold at a steady run rate of about 1 to 6 coins per customer. There weren't too many big buyers loading up on this coin. In other words most purchases were small amounts. I assume that there can't be too many people that hold more than 125 of them. This is great because the market won't be flooded with them in the future. The dragon and the Phoenix did well but there were a much more sold with relatively many more bulk buyers. The bulk buyers have the most influence on the premium of the coin.

Could the hat trick be that the queen is on the coin? Ghana is not part of the common wealth anymore.

[bacass02]

6 hours ago, Rhyseyson said:

Kind of wish i got more than 3 now

SD Bullion just got 95 more in stock. They are still unaware of the 5000 mintage and have them priced 20.46! Get them while you can 

https://sdbullion.com/2017-african-ghana-leopard-1-oz-silver-coin

**I missed the comments already stating this and yeah they could end up being the 5 cedi coin **

[Shoba]

Wish I would of got my hands on a few of these. Any available anywhere? 

[augur]

On 10/07/2017 at 05:08, Shoba said:

Wish I would of got my hands on a few of these. Any available anywhere? 

http://goldsilver.be/en/home/1279-1-oz-silver-100-cedis-ghana-leopard-2017.html

Prices have increased already. If you lived in the U.K. you could order via @BackyardBullion to safe some postage, which is what I did. Not sure though if they are selling orders which they cannot fulfill...

Edit: they confirmed that they have stock but are likely to increase the price next week. 

[Shoba]

Thanks @augur. Im in the states though. I saw on ebay 28 usd plus 2.99 shipping. 

[PolarPanda]

At the end it's all about the feeling you have with a coin. I have the feeling this will be a winner. All signs point in that direction. I bought 20 and i don't do that easily. Ofcourse it's possible i wil have made a wrong investment, but time will tell.  

[Gav]

At the end it's all about the feeling you have with a coin. I have the feeling this will be a winner. All signs point in that direction. I bought 20 and i don't do that easily. Ofcourse it's possible i wil have made a wrong investment, but time will tell. [emoji4] 

I plan to drop five on the market for about $600 and will come with DHL fedex or ups delivery.

Now they may not sell but I want to jump start the bidding price for this coin on the eBay market. I hope to be the first but anyone is welcome to use my idea.

I'm a market maker as my current profession and if my plan works these coins are going to be bigly.

I drafted my first description what do you think?

I plan to drop five on the market for about $600 and will come with DHL fedex or ups delivery.

Now they may not sell but I want to jump start the bidding price for this coin on the eBay market. I hope to be the first but anyone is welcome to use my idea.

I'm a market maker as my current profession and if my plan works these coins are going to be bigly.

I drafted my first description what do you think?

This set of 5 coins come sealed from the mint in a sheet of 5 and are all mint error coins. This type of error would be classed as a mule type error as the two dies used in producing the 100 Cedis silver African Leopard coin weren't meant for each other when producing the coin.

The first error to this coin is that 100 Cedis was more valuable than the metal contents value and the retailed price when introduced. This is a serious issue that the mint has not yet to my knowledge accepted responsibility for. The bank of Ghana has issued a statement that 30, 100, and 200 Cedis are not legal tender.

The second strike, is that the queen is on the coin. Ghanaian coins wouldn't typically have the queen on. Though the art work in the design coupled with effect that from one angle the writing is camouflaged and from another angle the queen has a silhouette effect and the writing stands out very clearly. Since Ghana was under British law could we let this side, the artist effect sure compliments the coin?

The third strike making a hat trike of booboos the two dies use in making this coin went the same size. This caused a slightly noticeable uneven edge that varies approximately 3.2mm to 3.8mm and a lips is present on the reverse side of the coin.
Since the error is still very fresh the mint has not yet responded to me yet or the public about these three booboos and I get the feeling they are sort of hoping that there isn't too much attention drawn and would like to say it is all just part of the program and there is nothing to see here, NOTHING TO SEE HERE! As they hurry to produce the 5 Cedis.

While I'm sure they have all the rights to producing collectors coins of Ghana and both Apmex and Scottsdale mint have stated that they are legal tender there is still answers to why these 3 issues I have raised. There are 5,000 coins out there in the world.

The artwork and detailing to this coin makes this coin a collector choice. As a collector I keep my own with me to admire this piece of art when I get a chance. It is stunning and a coin that has a story that we could all really learn from.

Ghanaian people are amazing people that have come together and endured hyperinflation and in 2008 changed over from the new Cedi to the Ghana Cedi (Third cedi)
which is still used to day and 100 Cedis as of today is $22.83 or €20.

Selling sealed in capsules that are laminated to a cardboard sheet directly from the mint. Shipping included and will be shipped via DHL, FEDEx or UPS.

[Gav]

The third strike making a hat trike of booboos the two dies use in making this coin went the same size. This caused a slightly noticeable uneven edge that varies approximately 3.2mm to 3.8mm and a lips is present on the reverse side of the m

Already spotted a few grammatical errors and spelling mistakes.

Now I think I know how Scottsdale feel.

[swAgger]

14 minutes ago, Gav said:

I plan to drop five on the market for about $600 and will come with DHL fedex or ups delivery.

Now they may not sell but I want to jump start the bidding price for this coin on the eBay market. I hope to be the first but anyone is welcome to use my idea.

I'm a market maker as my current profession and if my plan works these coins are going to be bigly.

Well, as you have asked for opinions i'll sure give mine, but you won't like it.

First, that's a disgraceful mark-up. Based on nothing. Second, i am totally against this type of manipulative hype. The coin doesn't need it. It'll do quite well in the future all on its own without this sort of thing to damage its reputation. Third, i am also against marketing which claims coins to be errors without first having them confirmed by the industry. You may well be right about the different die size but to claim this coin as a mule without confirmation is irresponsible at this point.

All in all, it is listings like this with hype and inflated prices from sellers which actually hurt the reputation of others. We all want our hobby to also be profitable but that way is just not right. You intend to trap some unsuspecting mug, and you might actually sell some but i won't be applauding it if you do.

I get your enthusiasm for this coin, but no, no, no. This coin will certainly be a collectible item, and it doesn't need your "help" along the way. Certainly not this type.

[Gav]

Well, as you have asked for opinions i'll sure give mine, but you won't like it.
First, that's a disgraceful mark-up. Based on nothing. Second, i am totally against this type of manipulative hype. The coin doesn't need it. It'll do quite well in the future all on its own without this sort of thing to damage its reputation. Third, i am also against marketing which claims coins to be errors without first having them confirmed by the industry. You may well be right about the different die size but to claim this coin as a mule without confirmation is irresponsible at this point.
All in all, it is listings like this with hype and inflated prices from sellers which actually hurt the reputation of others. We all want our hobby to also be profitable but that way is just not right. You intend to trap some unsuspecting mug, and you might actually sell some but i won't be applauding it if you do.
I get your enthusiasm for this coin, but no, no, no. This coin will certainly be a collectible item, and it doesn't need your "help" along the way. Certainly not this type.

Strong words of wisdom.

You might be right and you do think that what I'm doing is wrong but starting the price for this coin high has a good effect for the whole market including the buyer. I know this better than most. If we were ten years ago you would be right but we live in a world that viral trends have much more traction and the the sooner this goose gets off the $100 price point the higher it will fly.

Scottsdale is no Perth mint and if it doesn't break that $100 price point it will drop off quickly and. Ever recover. There are too many dragon and the Phoenix coins and their price is going for about 100$. Buyers will choose the best preforming coin.

If Scottsdale had some foresight they would buy them up just to set the price perception higher while they have the chance.

Price perception is everything, why do you think people will buy a line of code for $3000, perception is key. What someone would pay for this coin is up to the free market. If $100 doesn't work then we can try lower if it works then we go higher.

I have a vested interest in this coin and as I'm a person that builds markets as my day job, I will work at making this coin more valuable. So I'm not helping this coin, I'm working at making my investment more valuable. If anything I'm making a headache for the mint which I have no hard feelings for.

Now yes if someone came along and bought it and this coin doesn't do well. Which might be the case I would feel bad for the person who bought it. But I'm not pricing the coin for someone who can't afford to lose $600, but my intention is to make this coin into a good return on my investment. I don't buy coins so that I can fondle Them, I buy to make money.

And I'm sure that this coin doesn't need me but I sure that I have already effected the market, but I could be wrong and I have had nothing to do with effecting it.

As for the mint taking responsibility for their errors they could have contacted me and gave me the story even if it was weak. They could have corrected me but they didn't. I even suggested that they could state that it was purposely made to look like an error and These emails did get passed on to upper management as I had confirmation that my emails were sent to their management. So I will keep to the fact that it is an error.

Casting doubt on that fact may cause people to think that this isn't an error, when it is maybe the biggest error for all bullion coins.

I'm sure that they don't want to lose the government contracts to mint coins with legal tender value and I'm sure that they hate me for what I'm saying but then again my interest don't align with their interests.

If you think I'm wrong, I will consider what you have pointed out. Maybe my idea of making some profit off my coins isn't the best idea.

Thanks again for the different point of view, I do appreciate it.

[Gav]

Hey Swagger and any one willing to share some insight.

What would you suggest would be a good idea so that I can make some profit on this coin?

I have a a few more coins than what most people have as I loaded up on them as I picked up on the error quiet early on. (Sorry for calling a duck a duck but it is an error even if the mint hasn't admitted to it yet)

I would even suspect that if I hadn't raised the issue with their distributor the coin would have had a much higher mintage than the 5,000. I'm sure that I did have some effect as Apmex and Scottsdale responded quiet quickly when I brought up the issue of counterfeiting currencies.

You might think that I'm a manipulative a**hole but I'm not going to let this one go. The mint has done some serious damaged to the whole concept of legal tender bullion coins in my opinion and so have no regrets about calling them out on this.

Also what would be a fair price for this coin?

All opinions are welcome, including swaggers harsh comments.

[augur]

@Gav I am not going to comment as I am far too much a guest and newbie here and just dipping my toes into the liquid metal.

It is quite interesting what you are openly discussing about market making; and while some will be quite repulsed, I am sure we are exposed to the same principles all the time, may it be in fashion, music etc.

It is quite disgraceful to see mark-ups on "error" 12-sided one pound coins, where no value is provided.

But what you are suggesting is trying to generate a value not in the hope that someone actually buys the coin at $600 but to give this coin some exposure. I guess "all is fair in love and (media)war". Whether it is possible to generate such an interest, that 5.000 silver coins will shoot up in value will be interesting to see. With billions of potential buyers it should not be impossible but I think it takes more than an eBay listing to get this coin quadruple in value beyond $100.

 

[Clens92]

27 minutes ago, Gav said:

Hey Swagger and any one willing to share some insight.

What would you suggest would be a good idea so that I can make some profit on this coin?

I have a a few more coins than what most people have as I loaded up on them as I picked up on the error quiet early on. (Sorry for calling a duck a duck but it is an error even if the mint hasn't admitted to it yet)

I would even suspect that if I hadn't raised the issue with their distributor the coin would have had a much higher mintage than the 5,000. I'm sure that I did have some effect as Apmex and Scottsdale responded quiet quickly when I brought up the issue of counterfeiting currencies.

You might think that I'm a manipulative a**hole but I'm not going to let this one go. The mint has done some serious damaged to the whole concept of legal tender bullion coins in my opinion and so have no regrets about calling them out on this.

Also what would be a fair price for this coin?

All opinions are welcome, including swaggers harsh comments.

 

I think people are uneasy with the fact that your description comes across slightly as if you're a used-car salesman; it's all 'wink wink, nudge nudge, evening guv'nor'.  I wouldn't buy a coin from you if you used that description because you've not provided any real evidence of your claims that it's a mint error.  For the coin community to accept that a strike is indeed an error, you need NGC or PCGS to agree - it might not be fair, but that's how it works... they're the market makers in the numismatic market.  Alluding to semi-threatening emails to Scottsdale and Apmex does kinda make you seem a bit of an arse, to be honest.  Perhaps this is just an example of collectors in different cultures / countries approaching things slightly differently.

 

You can try to sell them for whatever you want to; they're your coins and we're all here to make money or safeguard our wealth.  But this forum is not the place to try to pump and dump a product; plenty have tried it and it never works because most people here are switched on.  If we know how much you paid for those coins, some people will resent you trying to milk the profit for as much as possible.

My suggestion: Send a batch of 5 coins to NGC and petition them to recognise the coin as an official mint error.  Then you'll have MS69-70 slabbed coins, the first in the market, and you might make the sales-prices that you're hoping for. 

[metallica73]

There's nothing to stop you putting a sale price of $60 on something you own on Ebay ($600 is ridiculous) but the price of this will go up if there is a genuine 'buzz' and want for them rather than an artificial one.

There are still a few out at there at certain dealers, so first you need to see what happens to the asking price when they are sold out from dealers and then what happens when the 5 cedi coins are released soon. Whether the 100 Cedi limited mintage becomes desireable or not. And longer term, whether this series is desired.

One thing in it's favour is I like the design and from videos the coins look good and the obverse side is definitely 'different'. Apmex bumping the price of these $5 was a good start.

The next thing is... will there be milk spotting issues. What is Scottsdale like for that?

 

 

 

[augur]

A different question: @Gav mentioned some size discrepancy alongside with the "mule" allegations. And then we have the nomination difference which equals roundabout to the difference of 1oz gold and silver coins.

Could it be that the 100 Cedis reverse was planned for a gold coin and then got accidently used for the silver coin instead?

[Gav]

Thanks for that, and everyone's opinions are worth listening too. So thanks for sharing.

I'm also new here. I would never have been willing to join into the online conversation but thought it might be worth the experience.


The feed back to my draft has really been eye opening. It was a rushed idea that I thought could carry water.

The point to how a mint error is defined is informative, but I did state in my description that the mint has not confirmed it. I don't think it is miss leading and all the 3 points are visible on the coin. So I'm not trying to trick anyone.

The price of $600 for a sheet of 5 sealed with expedited shipping is a good starting point in my opinion, especially if you consider what the dragon and the Phoenix have been selling for.

It is a bit of a a**hole move to try and intimidate the mint and Apmex but in my defense they avoided my questions and I think that if I didn't they would have continued to milk it till the cows come home. So I think that I stood up and did sometging good for the little guys that bought some while they were available.

Then again who am I and I probably didn't even have any real effect to the mintage or the likes and it is just confirmation bias that has made me think that the timing of my emails and the changes to the description was my doing.

[bacass02]

On 7/9/2017 at 10:50, bacass02 said:

SD Bullion just got 95 more in stock. They are still unaware of the 5000 mintage and have them priced 20.46! Get them while you can 

https://sdbullion.com/2017-african-ghana-leopard-1-oz-silver-coin

**I missed the comments already stating this and yeah they could end up being the 5 cedi coin **

 

It was indeed the 5 cedi coin. They ended up selling out of them but they just recently changed the photo to the 5 cedi version. Those sneaky snakes 

As for pricing, $50 seems to be the going rate on eBay

 

[metallica73]

Well $50 is the asking price, the going rate is around $30 at the moment.

SD Bullion are going to get a lot of irate customers, they were selling the wrong coin!