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Having spent the afternoon in London chatting to strangers in some of the poorer parts of London, of all ethnic backgrounds and religions, I can say that sentiment among most who I talked to about this is 100% that of the videos, and these were people not directly involved (although some knew people local to the event - I do too but he lives on one of the most expensive roads in Chelsea). If I had gone to meet my friends in the City, the tourist spots etc no doubt things would have been completely different, but on the street even around central London and on the Tube of all places I felt a unity and saw simple acts of kindness I've never seen before, or probably rather are so long ago now I don't remember when it felt like that.

16 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

Why would they cover up the deaths of others over and above the numbers released? It makes no difference to how the government or the council would be regarded whether it's 50, 100 or 500 dead. Even if nobody lost their lives, the anti-goverment agitators will take the opportunity to criticise. There's more risk to the authorities being caught covering up extra deaths than the actual death toll being double that reported.

 

 

I think it makes a huge difference. I would say there would probably be riots, but the Muslims are too peaceful. They are planning marches, these would certainly be bigger. I think May would have to resign, and the country's leadership already hangs in the balance right now. She won't last that much longer, we all know that, but there will be a crisis if it happens now.

Whatever you think of the BBC, they will follow the official sources on such a tragedy. The legislation is already in place to keep people who know strictly in line under National Security (if required). Even if the local community get a proper list together between themselves and its loads more people it won't be broadcast later on by the media, will it? What are they going to say, the chiefs of police, the fire service, the local council and even the government lied to us and used us to lie to you? I can't see it somehow myself!

I hope the numbers are true, naturally, but it doesn't tally with the people known locally who lived there who haven't been seen since, and the families searching for loved ones who are getting no answers.

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46 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

You think the BBC is controlled by the government?:P

Why would they cover up the deaths of others over and above the numbers released? It makes no difference to how the government or the council would be regarded whether it's 50, 100 or 500 dead. Even if nobody lost their lives, the anti-goverment agitators will take the opportunity to criticise. There's more risk to the authorities being caught covering up extra deaths than the actual death toll being double that reported.

 

 

You think the BBC is not controlled? It even has a 'Controller'. They are telling you it is controlled. 

They let you know if it weren't obvious. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-bbc-is-worryingly-close-to-becoming-an-arm-of-the-government-says-its-own-former-chair-10368284.html

Do you think any of the major media outlets aren't controlled? The BBC receives funds from the EU - the EU is influencing what it does. The media is about public perception and opinion. It is most obvious in wartime when false stories are put out and stories buried. It has been going on for ever.

 

It looks like people have questioned whether the media is not releasing information. We know Tony Blair likes D notices to cover up for his paedophile colleagues. Nice from someone convicted of soliciting underage boys in public toilets.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/and-finally/what-is-a-dnotice-debunking-claims-the-media-is-being-gagged-over-the-grenfell-fire-35834435.html

That a 'newspaper' would run an article like this to deny something makes me suspicious. 

When we see incidents like this which could potentially be a lot bigger and a lot nastier, agitating the public will be viewed as not in the National interest. More than enough has been done to evict Theresa May and discredit government so as to soften Brexit to a meaningless token event. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/grenfell-protesters-storm-kensington-town-hall-pictures/

 

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They have a "controller" yes, but who controls the controller and does he/she really control editorial output?

So you're saying the BBC is directly controlled by the EU and a Tory government:rolleyes:

and if so how come they have spent the last few years peddling anti-govenment propaganda and pushing a socialist agenda whenever possible?

It's very easy to search the internet and find links that agree with whatever crackpot views you hold.

 

 

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I fully accept that a statement like the BBC and all mainstream and even sidestream media are controlled is a hard one to accept. It sounds like it comes from those tin foil hat paranoid ideas people have you are looking out the window at night with night vision binoculars for UFO's.

Who is government? 

Theresa May called the election. She had a majority and a mandate. She could have coasted to the end of the term. However she said there was insufficient mandate when in reality they had a referendum for a straight leave the EU, which the people were endlessly told would mean leaving the single market and everything else. There is no intention to leave the EU. There never was.

She called the election. The election was fought on a May v Corbin ticket. Then the Tories put forward a suicide manifesto of cutting pensions, pensioner benefits, raising some taxes and increased monitoring on the people. They could have lost. They did in effect lose. On the other hand Corbin becomes the man of the people. We have clearly seen the disparity in May and Corbin with this recent fire. Theresa May is finished. The way she has conducted things is apparently plain stupid and predictably self-destructive. It is my belief she was instructed to do what she did. The 'government' instructed her and like a good little puppet she has followed the script.

Putin did an interview recently when he spoke of 'men in dark suits' telling the US President how it is going to be. Saying the president isn't in charge.  Is Putin going conspiracy retard or has he given the world some insight into what goes on behind the scenes?  These men in dark suits are all over the world.

Have you ever wondered at times when there is a government reshuffle. A minister might be at the Department of Health but gets moved to Environment after 6 months earlier have been in charge of the Department of Industry. Ever wondered how they are able to run these departments with no experience? They can't and they don't. They aren't meant to. These people are self-serving and corrupt. This is why they land highly paid jobs after they leave for services rendered but not to the country. Tony Blair the war criminal is a case in point. 

The major media outlets have Intelligence Service operatives working there. i showed the video where it is admitted that is the case in the USA. It will be the same in the UK. Those who follow the line get promoted. The BBC has followed a Leftist programme forever b/c that is the ultimate One World Government programme. The window dressing government is not running the long term plans. i notice how parties say various things at election time but all end up doing pretty much the same when in office. There is an illusion of choice when no real choice exists other than to remove yourself from the system.

Take the recent French election. Millions of voting slips for Le Penn were torn before they were sent out so a vote using these would not count. Extra voting slips were sent to Macron voters. We saw in the US election where ballot boxes were discovered full of Clinton votes. Massive voter fraud is being uncovered. A hand above those in office is responsible for this.There was a Wikileaks leak about Macron just before polling day. The guy is a criminal. Nothing is being said and nothing is being done about it.

We heard about paedophilia in Westminster. We heard about historic child abuse. It is always historic and involves people who are now dead unless they are has been TV comedians or presenters. The Commissioner at the Met refused to look into the case of Cyril Smith on the grounds he was dead. The man had been abusing for years. It was known and nothing happened. Investigation would uncover living abusers in high office so nothing is done. The Intelligence Service hold control files on those in high office. Those who are or can be caught up in sexual scandals especially child abuse ones can be controlled.

A hero at the BBC was Jimmy Savile. For years he abused children. He was a child sex trafficker. He sorted things out. Many knew but he still rubs shoulders with Royalty, stays at Chequers at Christmas and gets knighted. He was protected, he was untouchable. But who is protecting him? Who is ensuring no-one at the BBC dobs him in? Who is ensuring he gets reward with Jim'll Fix It' a kids' programme for a paedophile? If ever there were a clue that the BBC is controlled by the hidden hand, the shadow government, the Deep State or whatever you want to call it, Jimmy Savile is proof. The system is riddled with paedophiles. That way the system can be controlled. The government can be controlled by those who really pull the strings. 

We saw this headline in the run up to the Brexit referendum.   "BBC has received £2m in EU funding in run up to referendum, fuelling accusations of bias."

 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12059280/BBC-has-received-2m-in-EU-funding-in-run-up-to-referendum-fueling-accusations-of-bias.html

The BBC has been taking backhanders from the EU for many years. This is contrary to its Charter, but no-one in power says anything, i wonder why? 

This post could get very long. The BBC is the propaganda arm of the Deep State. All the mainstream outlets are controlled. Any differences in opinion are inconsequential and to give an illusion of fair reporting. 

Edited by sixgun

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I have to assume the reporters on the BBC and Sky News never went to science classes in school.
The ticker tape headlines today are stating that the original fire retardant Zinc cladding was substituted by cheaper Aluminium cladding, blaming the metal.
The problem I see is that the choice of metal is not that important it is the insulation of polyethylene which is described elsewhere as akin to solid petrol !

Another political figure is now saying the flammability tests are all wrong and that the panel should be checked not the insulation - what a pillock !!
A boy scout will tell you that polyethylene or plastic bottles will burn and drip molten burning liquid whilst emitting black toxic smoke AND if anyone who ever lived in a house with a coal fire will know, to get the fire started hold a newspaper over the fireplace to create an updraught and start a roaring fire - how can the media not explain this or is everyone scared shi*less to illustrate the basics ?

 

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With a newly appointed Environmental Secretary who left it to its successor to update fire regulations in 2014 it just shows how quickly people forget and it seems they will get away with it, again. 

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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/28/grenfell-tower-death-toll-may-not-be-known-until-end-of-year-say-police

So it suggests here the death toll may not be known until the end of the year. Are they serious? Why would it take 6 months? There would be no need to know the identity of remains to know they were dead.

i listened to a video where Michael Shrimpton spoke about the Grenfell Tower incident. i do not accept all he says in his past revelations, for example with respect to the Germans, but he got sent to jail for some of what he does says and i suspect he had child images planted on a memory stick. 

He suggests there was an explosion due to explosives stored by an IS cell living in the flats. That the media is aware of this but is not releasing it and that the death toll is higher than publically disclosed. Curious and curiouser. 

 

Edited by sixgun

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11 minutes ago, sixgun said:

Why would it take 6 months? There would be no need to know the identity of remains to know they were dead.

I would imagine if they were presented with lots of totally burnt out remains, maybe they would have to do DNA studies to tell how many individuals there were?

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22 minutes ago, sixgun said:

He suggests there was an explosion due to explosives stored by an IS cell living in the flats. That the media is aware of this but is not releasing it and that the death toll is higher than publically disclosed. Curious and curiouser.

Why would the media cover it up? sounds like it would be a juicy story

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7 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

I would imagine if they were presented with lots of totally burnt out remains, maybe they would have to do DNA studies to tell how many individuals there were?

Point taken and then you look at how long the analysis can take - i would have hazarded a guess a result could be back within the day and a standard no rush would be a couple of weeks. 

"Fast forensic test can match suspects DNA with crime samples in four hours."

https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/pressroom/presspacs/2010/acs-presspac-august-4-2010/fast-forensic-test-can-match-suspects-dna-with-crime-samples-in-four-hours.html

There is supposed to be an inquiry kicking off and they suggest it might not be until the end of the year before the full death toll is known. I find that hard to believe. A better statement might be that it may take until the end of the year before "a death toll" is released. If i were in officialdom i would look to let as much time as possible pass and keep the figure are low as possible. 

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19 minutes ago, Kman said:

Why would the media cover it up? sounds like it would be a juicy story

You presume there is a free media. That it reports the facts as they are. I have touched on this before - the media is not free. It is a propaganda outlet of the 'authorities', which does not necessarily mean just the government. Now i can see that for many that is just crazy talk. They believe the BBC News. The 'News' is about things that are New, there is no mention it is true. A few years ago i had a foot in that camp.

Let's say 250 people were killed, just a hypothetical. If i were in officialdom i would not want that figure released now or even ever. i would know who was responsible, what policies were behind it and what criminality was involved. If a 'terror cell' was even unintentionally involved, what would it say about the state of so-called security? Too many embarrishing questions to answer - move on nothing to see here, we need more coverage of Love Island and Celine Dion posing naked for Vogue magazine.

Edited by sixgun

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Do you have any idea how fussy insurance companies are regarding paying out ? Ever heard of reinsurance market ?

http://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/uk/news/breaking-news/grenfell-tower-insurance-bill-could-be-europes-biggest-ever--reports-71072.aspx

orwegian insurer Protector Forsikring initially revealed that last week’s Grenfell Tower fire could lead to an insurance bill of more than £25 million - but now the total payout is estimated to be as high as £1 billion.   

This could be Europe’s single biggest building insurance payout, according to a report by Sputnik. It said The Times estimated the total bill, with eventual cost depending on the number of fatalities, the price of demolishing and rebuilding the property, and the litigation.

Edited by Oldun

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55 minutes ago, sixgun said:

So it suggests here the death toll may not be known until the end of the year.

 

I have given above a pretty clear indication of the current body count. Any decision to not communicate this to the public is taken at a higher level. 

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4 minutes ago, augur said:

I have given above a pretty clear indication of the current body count. Any decision to not communicate this to the public is taken at a higher level. 

A figure of several hundred deaths has been mentioned.  i do not know how many there were but after spending a year trailing back and forth to London to get a diploma in forensic science i know it doesn't take until the end of the year to come up with the death count. This is just rubbish.

As you say any decision about communicating the actual death toll to the people has and will be taken at a higher level. 

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39 minutes ago, Oldun said:

Do you have any idea how fussy insurance companies are regarding paying out ? Ever heard of reinsurance market ?

http://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/uk/news/breaking-news/grenfell-tower-insurance-bill-could-be-europes-biggest-ever--reports-71072.aspx

orwegian insurer Protector Forsikring initially revealed that last week’s Grenfell Tower fire could lead to an insurance bill of more than £25 million - but now the total payout is estimated to be as high as £1 billion.   

This could be Europe’s single biggest building insurance payout, according to a report by Sputnik. It said The Times estimated the total bill, with eventual cost depending on the number of fatalities, the price of demolishing and rebuilding the property, and the litigation.

3

Releasing a death toll is not the same as identifying the bodies. In this instance, bodies may never be identified. There is a big difference between saying there lies the charred remains of a human being and putting a name to it. There can be no payout for a nameless corpse. There is no property in a corpse.

So are you suggesting that the release of a final death toll will be dictated by the insurers? 

It would surprise me if the payout on most of those who died would amount to much. If someone is damaged and has to be cared for, for decades, this is costly but a plain vanilla death of children and the poor wouldn't amount to a hill of beans. The site will no doubt be redeveloped, the property itself will never be rebuilt. The building was worth less than nothing, it was full of poor people, the site is worth many millions. 

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I have worked in the insurance and reinsurance business and can categorically tell you that insurers and more importantly reinsurers can bugger about demanding report after report until you claimant is blue in the face. This requires an accurate account of injured, fatalities, types of and damage (I wont bother you with the rest). That is a fact and so as the local council is on the hook for this one, you can bet your ass there will be delays. If you want to get into your political conspiracy theories you so love, knock yourself out.

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1 hour ago, Oldun said:

I have worked in the insurance and reinsurance business and can categorically tell you that insurers and more importantly reinsurers can bugger about demanding report after report until you claimant is blue in the face. This requires an accurate account of injured, fatalities, types of and damage (I wont bother you with the rest). That is a fact and so as the local council is on the hook for this one, you can bet your ass there will be delays. If you want to get into your political conspiracy theories you so love, knock yourself out.

This is a Coroner's case, this is a Police investigation, this is an Oficial Inquiry. This is of National Interest. 

Granted the insurers will drag this out for years. No debating that but deliberately squashing the release of the death count and censoring of information is another matter. At this .stage the Police will know how many are dead - the Police do know how many are dead and it isn't 80.  i have been told the Met have a number and it is over 300. People in the press will know that. There will be a D notice in place. It is unimaginable to imagine anything else. 

The Council had its first meeting after the fire to discuss the fire but those affected were banned. If the true number were on the News and in the papers no ban would prevent a riot that would likely escalate. This could bring the government down, the mood of the country would be such.

Edited by sixgun

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2 hours ago, Oldun said:

If you want to get into your political conspiracy theories you so love, knock yourself out.

@sixgun hasn't even gone into "conspiracy theory" on this one. Only a delay on information release and whitewash on the extend of human loss. 

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http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/29/grenfell-tower-survivors-to-be-banned-from-first-council-meeting-since-fire-6743391/

 

I assume this is what you are referring to when you mentione the first meeting. Tough call that after some idiots couldn't control themselves.

3 minutes ago, augur said:

and now for some "conspiracy" - implementation of new fire regulations would have cost some landlords a few quid, so why not leave it to my successor could be a thought that slipped new chief of staff Gavin Barwell

https://fullfact.org/law/fire-safety-regulations-has-government-delayed-reviewing-them/

I see nothing there untoward - slow yes. But nothing criminal.

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17 minutes ago, augur said:

@sixgun hasn't even gone into "conspiracy theory" on this one. Only a delay on information release and whitewash on the extend of human loss. 

"whitewash" ? Proof please ? I haven't seen any yet, just conjecture and that is what irks me.

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2 hours ago, Oldun said:

"I have been told that...." Who by ? If you are claiming to be in the know, state clearly.

If you hear in the established media "from usually well informed sources" you also don't question the validity... to protect my source I won't name it in public either. 

Edited by augur

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If you were told who 'leaked' the information it would make no difference, you would not know them, it would just be a name and you would not believe it until it was on the BBC News. When you hear that it could be 6 months before the full death toll is known that should sound an alarm.

All the remains are in the building [excepting those who jumped to their deaths]. All the rooms are accessible and have been accessed. All the bodies will have been removed by now. i have been to many scenes of death. Quite likely many will never be identified even with DNA evidence. Unless you have their DNA on a database or they have dental records, in severely charred remains you struggle.Likely many are not in the tenant records. 

This is a major incident and the police control what information is released and when. This is routine. When something is as emotive as this and potentially politicians are in the frame for criminal negligence the Home Office will be all over this. We will be told enough, this is how it is. If this were a 'terrorist event' you would have a list within days.

Edited by sixgun

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