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Stock Silver and Gold???


Whatmuff

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Good afternoon all

 

I have acquired as much silver as I think I need in bulk over the last 3 months now I'm just wondering what to spend the last 1000 on?! Do I buy more silver coins (maples or Lunar series) or do I spread my investment into a few 1/10 oz gold coins?? I'm just a bit cautious with the high price of gold at the moment and I can get a lot more silver for the money

Does anyone else stack gold as well? 

All the best

Dan

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I'm leaning towards silver more now purely for the tax reduced stuff from Europe, if Brexit ever happens and we actually get out the EU than that stops so even if we are still good for a couple of years yet I'm more for taking advantage of it while we can.

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42 minutes ago, Whatmuff said:

I'm tempted to stick with Silver too! For 1500 I can get a 1oz gold beast and 2 1/4 oz brittainias but silver I'm looking at around 90 ozs!!

 

No Knocking you chief, but i dont get this mentality.

 

Yes you get more volume, but in 6 months if you flogged it all you would lose more on the silver.

 

I just dont get buying mass produced bullion silver at all, unless thinking 10+ years ahead.

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4 hours ago, Heisenberg said:

 

No Knocking you chief, but i dont get this mentality.

 

Yes you get more volume, but in 6 months if you flogged it all you would lose more on the silver.

 

I just dont get buying mass produced bullion silver at all, unless thinking 10+ years ahead.

I'm looking long term, it's not to sell any time soon. I'm just looking to get as much of the physical stuff and store it away but at the same time vary what I have that's all. Im new to it really and it's just hard to buy 1 gold 1 oz britannia than say 60 silver 1 oz coins as I don't know what the golds gonna do. I'm reading up and watching as many investment videos at the moment to get an idea of how and what to invest in the gold market for future security but it's just not a lot in your hands as apposed to silver. But the investment is long term, unless of course silver shoots to 1k an oz! I went for a 1oz Gold Britannia and 50 silver 1 oz Britannia, gonna start on the gold I think. 

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Whatmuff,

If you only have silver right now then I guess that you are betting more on the industrial side of silver going up and a shortening of the gold silver ratio.  If you are also concerned about the monetary part of it then silver is still at a reasonably high ratio on the G/S ratio which is a fair enough reason to be buying silver.  However, it is not as high as it has been last year so you should bear that in mind.  It all depends what you want from your silver.  If you are buying silver as a precious metal to save you from a mini armageddon then perhaps you should also consider gold.  If you are buying it because you believe that the industrial demand in modern tech is going to go through the roof then that's fine stay in cheapest possible bullion silver.  I personally would suggest you buy some uk gold sovereigns which you can buy in the UK without VAT at very reasonable premiums.  Especially if you buy second hand sovereigns from a proper reputable dealer that has checked them professionally.  You will pay something like 4% odd on top of spot gold price which is far better than physical silver coin premiums at nearly 20% from Europe without vat and more in the UK with vat.

Perhaps gold will not have as much upside as silver if the world financial system magically heals itself and industrial demand for silver skyrockets.  But who really knows.  It all depends on whether you are buying the fiat devaluation story or the industrial demand story.  Both can go hand in hand actually and therefore it's prudent to spread your portfolio between both metals.  Gold will certainly not cost you significantly more than it's spot value when you buy it if you use a decent dealer here in the UK.  Also, as an added bonus, when you buy second hand sovereigns of mixed dates they are actually sometimes if you are lucky of mixed dates which is nice!!  I would recommend you check out someone like Chards and see what their prices are for sovs.  Forget the brits unless you have a lot of money to spend.  Pretty much the cheapest gold £ for OZ you can buy that is CGT free is the Sovs.  Remember, it doesn't need to look pretty if you are using it as a monetary instrument.  Another great thing about sovs is that you don't need to care too much about sovs because they are 22 carat and are quite tough compared to 24 carat gold.  You can keep em in a velvet pouch and tip em on to the table(little bit carefully lol) and it wont devalue them.  They are recognised all around the world for their weight in gold regardless of the fact that they are not 24 carat which is a recent fad.  Simplz  GL with your buying deliberations

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15 hours ago, silversky said:

Whatmuff,

If you only have silver right now then I guess that you are betting more on the industrial side of silver going up and a shortening of the gold silver ratio.  If you are also concerned about the monetary part of it then silver is still at a reasonably high ratio on the G/S ratio which is a fair enough reason to be buying silver.  However, it is not as high as it has been last year so you should bear that in mind.  It all depends what you want from your silver.  If you are buying silver as a precious metal to save you from a mini armageddon then perhaps you should also consider gold.  If you are buying it because you believe that the industrial demand in modern tech is going to go through the roof then that's fine stay in cheapest possible bullion silver.  I personally would suggest you buy some uk gold sovereigns which you can buy in the UK without VAT at very reasonable premiums.  Especially if you buy second hand sovereigns from a proper reputable dealer that has checked them professionally.  You will pay something like 4% odd on top of spot gold price which is far better than physical silver coin premiums at nearly 20% from Europe without vat and more in the UK with vat.

Perhaps gold will not have as much upside as silver if the world financial system magically heals itself and industrial demand for silver skyrockets.  But who really knows.  It all depends on whether you are buying the fiat devaluation story or the industrial demand story.  Both can go hand in hand actually and therefore it's prudent to spread your portfolio between both metals.  Gold will certainly not cost you significantly more than it's spot value when you buy it if you use a decent dealer here in the UK.  Also, as an added bonus, when you buy second hand sovereigns of mixed dates they are actually sometimes if you are lucky of mixed dates which is nice!!  I would recommend you check out someone like Chards and see what their prices are for sovs.  Forget the brits unless you have a lot of money to spend.  Pretty much the cheapest gold £ for OZ you can buy that is CGT free is the Sovs.  Remember, it doesn't need to look pretty if you are using it as a monetary instrument.  Another great thing about sovs is that you don't need to care too much about sovs because they are 22 carat and are quite tough compared to 24 carat gold.  You can keep em in a velvet pouch and tip em on to the table(little bit carefully lol) and it wont devalue them.  They are recognised all around the world for their weight in gold regardless of the fact that they are not 24 carat which is a recent fad.  Simplz  GL with your buying deliberations

That's awesome many thanks for the great advice. To be honest it's a bit of both really with regards for reasons behind collecting PM. I can see the financial system crashing before not to long as most of my family and friends are all mortgaged up to the max with ultra low intrest rates, credit cards and loans and borrowing to the max and then in the red every month. I can see the way society is nowadays is to live in debt and spend as you earn, so when the next crash happens there will be no where for interest rates to go to recover the economy. I don't trust the banks one bit and the government for that matter. With brexit and trump and now Russian sanctions who knows!! And of course the industrial demand for silver can only be a good thing! I'm getting more into this by the minute!! Awesome 

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Some very good points about all the debts everyone and their goldfishes are racking up.  Buying some Sovs would basically hedge you into both PM's.  Because sovs have been produced for so long and have low premiums to spot price they are effectively a real form of internationally recognised money.  They are small (1p ish size) and easy to carry about without too much hassle.  They are also very easy to store without costing too much because of their size.  The fact that they are just a simple and rather boring bullion coin means you can free your mind of fancy ideas of collecting them for numismatic value and be secure in the knowledge that you are paying pretty much the cheapest you can pay for cgt free gold.  If you get some mixed date second hand ones you might be lucky enough to get a few with some of the more common different obverses which is a bit of fun.  Not numismatic certainly but a bit of fun all the same.  You can always go for this years brand new ones still in mint packing if you prefer but my advice would be just to go for the lowest price above spot whatever is cheaper from the dealer at the time.

A point to note is that there are a number of sort of forgeries of sovereigns in other parts of the world but they tend to be pure 24 carat gold replicas.  Many are made in the gulf states and in India and are actually worth a little more weight for weight as scrap gold than a genuine sovereign.  For that reason they are not particularly harmful forgeries/replicas though it's obviously preferable to have the real thing as it's not scrap gold.  With even very little experience you can see immediately the replicas.  Dubai is one such place where I've been shown replicas in a gold souk that were only described as locally made after I queried them.  They were obviously not the real thing by the 24 carat colour alone but also by the detail on the coin not being quite right.  Not a terrible rip off because it is still a lump of 24carat gold at the end of the day but obviously as a Brit the cgt free aspect of a real sov is worth considering.

That's why I advise sticking only to UK dealers that have a long established reputation.  There is no tax advantage to shopping abroad for gold and even if you can find a deal to save a fiver in a grand it's still not worth sacrificing the peace of mind that comes from using a good UK dealer that's been in business a long time.  As said before, Chards are a good place to start and I found them extremely helpful on the phone if you have any queries.  I can thoroughly recommend them as the best dealer I have used.

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i believe @silversky was referring to buying Gold in the uk in my opinion silver Is cheaper in Europe partly sure you the lack of vat

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13 minutes ago, shortstack68 said:

We only pay 1% less VAT than the UK, 20% there and 19% here

Obviously for silver its advantageous to shop in Europe because of the VAT issue.  Different dealers are able to offer different VAT rates through margin schemes that do not exist in UK.  Estonia is theoretically 0% hence why a couple of their dealers are often significantly cheaper than any UK quote for Silver.

I am referring only to gold in the point I am making though which has 0% VAT in the UK and in Europe.

Looking right now at the chards website it shows the price for 10 Newly minted Sovereigns as being £2343.10 + £11 fully insured postage.  This is from a UK retailer with all the legal protection that holds for an individual that lives in the UK with the UK distance selling regs etc.

A website that is very commonly mentioned here on this forum in Europe as being the cheapest also sells Newly minted Sovereigns.  Ten from them comes out at Eur 2739.3 including delivery (which turns out to be Yodel at this end certainly for Silver and therefore could potentially be a problem).  Converting with the exact mid market rate which you are NOT gonna get, that comes out at £2342.10 delivered from Europe as opposed to £2354.10 from the UK.

So about £12 cheaper to buy from Europe in a £2300 order assuming you miraculously get mid market rate in the fx exchange which you cannot.  More likely you will lose around £30 and remember, the transaction would come without the UK online distance selling protection laws which do not extend properly to Europe.

No brainer

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he is been quite clear if you live in the uk Gold is just as cheap to buy locally as in europe so why bother with the exchange rates none fully insured postage atkinsons has ten sovereigns delivered for £2311

 

I buy all my silver from Europe and all my gold from the uk

 

as you live in different countries you have different experiences

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2 hours ago, shortstack68 said:

So are you saying or assuming that only the UK has distance selling rights? You are also saying that the coins would come without UK online distance selling rights when i'm talking about buying in Europe (Mainland) so at a guess there would be no need to have any UK distance selling protection, plus buying and paying in Euros where the banking system don't charge an arm and a leg to transfer the money from 1 country to another also saves me money. Thus, i'm still buying cheaper because it's being bought in mainland Europe and staying in mainland europe, paid in euros without any need for mid market rates being applied.

 

No, you're correct, no brainer, but still cheaper. Do you work at chards by any chance?

@shortstack68

If you look back at the start of this topic, another forum member (who is from the UK) was discussing whether or not to buy some gold or stick with silver.  I was merely advising him that while there is a benefit from a UK buyers perspective of buying silver in Europe, it does not apply when buying gold because unlike silver, gold does not attract VAT in the UK.

From a UK buyers perspective therefore, it does not work out significantly cheaper to buy gold in Europe as I have very clearly demonstrated in my previous post looking up a European dealers page live and a UK dealers page live and converting.

Given that the discussion was between two people that live in the UK I fail to see what your point is.  Clearly for you, located in mainland Europe, it would be better not to use the UK.  And clearly for someone located in the UK it is better to avoid Europe when buying standard low premium bullion sovereigns.

And no, I do not work for Chards or for that matter any other bullion dealer and I have no associations with the precious metals industry.  I am not prohibited on this forum from expressing my opinion that I happen to think they're a good reputable dealer or indeed from recommending them to another forum member who is located in the UK.  Quite frankly you suggesting that I work for a company because I can personally recommend them to another forum member is a bit off.  It looks more like you trying to obfuscate the plain truth of my previous post by suggesting that I have an ulterior motive for it which I do not.

And regarding the distance selling regulations, it makes a VERY significant amount of sense to buy from the country that you are resident in given that there is no cost advantage to buy from abroad.  If anything goes wrong you are protected by your own countries laws rather than the generic EU regs which many online retailers opt out of in the terms and conditions anyway.  Try reading that terms and conditions box that you tick sometime and you will find that many of the things you imagine are in a contract you are actually opting out of.  That is not the case in the UK as there are very specific laws for UK businesses selling to UK customers hence the higher level of protection that is guaranteed to exist in the contract for a UK customer.  Period.

Hence my advice remains eminently sensible to anyone from the UK considering buying gold online from Europe.  It will not work out cheaper because of exchange rates and even if it was it would only be by a tiny fraction and the purchase may not carry the same high level of protection that an internal sale inside the UK definitely does.

I cannot be any clearer about this.

@4Nines7Hills

Good spot there.  Atkinsons is another good reputable dealer which I would have no hesitation in using.

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Hallo Dan,

i am new in this forum, however investing in silver and gold gives you the best and highest return. Gold is what dictates our economy and considering England Brexit and US Trump coming to office, investing in gold is, in my humble opinion, simply an obligation as i forecast a lot of negative news still to hit wall street.Yes gold is always a good investment in short medium and long term..

Good luck in buying.

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11 hours ago, Scuzzle said:

Gold for wealth preservation, Silver for investment and mining shares are for speculation.

Hey, some of my investment trusts hold mining shares! :)

They are indeed at the same time "high beta", cyclical, and potentially operating in not very stable countries (apart from Australia) but they tend to bring in dividends, which are usually regular and not to be sniffed at. If you can afford to sit tight and never panic-sell, they are not that bad to hold over the very long term.

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@shortstack68 You obviously know a lot more than I do about German rules and regulations and it certainly sounds like inside Germany you would be well protected by German laws as a buyer.  That's good and I commend the German law makers for protecting German buyers online.

Where it gets confused is when a sale is carried out in a different EU country.  Imagine trying to sue a foreign company and use their law not your own.  As a very simple example of how laws are different in each EU country lets just look at the fact that Estonia, which is an EU member, charges 0% VAT on silver.  0%!!!  They are the only EU country to do so.  If you buy silver in Estonia you pay 0% VAT on it.  The sale has to take place in Estonia which is how it works if you buy online.  Whenever you buy online the point of sale is regarded as being the country that the website is based.  So in the case of Estonia, the point of sale being Estonia means 0% VAT.  Great!  If you buy silver in Germany you pay 19% VAT on it "officially".  However, German dealers are allowed to charge a lower "margin" rate of VAT (look it up)  and can often sell it for less than the official 19% rate.  They don't show this but that is the case if you research it.  It is incorrect to assume that EU law is the same all over Europe.  Really.  Actually all of Europe has it's own laws that have an EU law above them supposedly that sometimes applies and sometimes does not.  Distance selling regulations are one such thing that varies.   It breaks down in reality unless you have a lot of time and money to go to court over things.  That is why right back at the start of this thread, I recommended that people in the UK should buy in the UK if they are buying gold because gold is almost the same price everywhere.  If however we are talking silver, then I wholeheartedly agree with you that it is better to look at the cheaper alternatives inside mainland Europe with VAT being a negotiable thing..  On this we agree completely.

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Dude.  You are comparing apples with oranges again.  If you look at my original post you will see that I was talking about standard low margin gold Sovereigns.  Not about silver or the latest QB 1/4 ounce coin which is NOT a low margin standard item.  I personally have not had a bad experience buying silver in Estonia and would recommend people to do so for the significant savings that can be made.  I have had a good experience buying from there.  However I have had a very poor experience buying silver from a different European dealer who used Yodel as their courier in the UK.  They left my package outside my house on the street completely uninsured.  I was very lucky it wasn't stolen!!!

You can show me all the nice websites you want but it doesn't change that simple fact.  Therefore for the last time....  For a UK buyer, buying simple gold sovereigns, it is not worth the tiny cost difference (if any) of buying from a European dealer with all the extra risk that entails to a UK customer.  Want all that extra risk? or prefer simple peace of mind?  Really not sure why you feel the need to try to prove otherwise when you are clearly not based in the UK and simply don't know.

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When you buy coins you need to think of the exit strategy.

You do not want to load up on big ticket items in the liquid part of your portfolio. By liquid i mean, the coins you have for a rainy day and you might have to sell in a hurry. Expect to get around spot for these.

Gold is the way forward in Europe. In the UK sovereigns are the choice. No tax when you buy and no tax when you sell. They are a small size and you can pick them up a close to spot. You can also sell them close to spot so there is no loss. You might be lucky and get a collector coin along the way but basic sovereign are very liquid with no slippage.

Silver outside North America and probably Australia, silver gets hammered by markups and tax. If you needed to sell in a hurry you could well be looking at a loss even if you managed to get them VAT free or low VAT.

Your best source of silver is Germany which runs the marginal tax scheme and dealers only tax their profit on the coin, not the full pre-tax price. Due to competition you can get some good prices which beat Estonia. i would load up on solid coins like Perth Lunars - Roosters/Monkey coins. These have the collector element so you may well get an extra bang for your buck if you don't have to sell in a hurry. I have used several BIG German dealers on several occassions (no fly by night outfits). They have all used UPS, like Celtic Gold does. The packages were fully insured. I had a problem very recently b/c the wrong postcode got on the package. My old postcode (don't know how that happened) but as there was a mismatched UPS sent it back to Germany. The dealer reassured me. They told me the package was 100% insured. They told me when it arrived back with them and now it is on the way back to me. The dealer demands the package is signed for. When i have not been home they have gone to a collection point and i pick them up with ID and sign for them. I usually used the gold.de price comparison site to find the best deals.

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22 minutes ago, sixgun said:

When you buy coins you need to think of the exit strategy.

You do not want to load up on big ticket items in the liquid part of your portfolio. By liquid i mean, the coins you have for a rainy day and you might have to sell in a hurry. Expect to get around spot for these.

Gold is the way forward in Europe. In the UK sovereigns are the choice. No tax when you buy and no tax when you sell. They are a small size and you can pick them up a close to spot. You can also sell them close to spot so there is no loss. You might be lucky and get a collector coin along the way but basic sovereign are very liquid with no slippage.

Silver outside North America and probably Australia, silver gets hammered by markups and tax. If you needed to sell in a hurry you could well be looking at a loss even if you managed to get them VAT free or low VAT.

Your best source of silver is Germany which runs the marginal tax scheme and dealers only tax their profit on the coin, not the full pre-tax price. Due to competition you can get some good prices which beat Estonia. i would load up on solid coins like Perth Lunars - Roosters/Monkey coins. These have the collector element so you may well get an extra bang for your buck if you don't have to sell in a hurry. I have used several BIG German dealers on several occassions (no fly by night outfits). They have all used UPS, like Celtic Gold does. The packages were fully insured. I had a problem very recently b/c the wrong postcode got on the package. My old postcode (don't know how that happened) but as there was a mismatched UPS sent it back to Germany. The dealer reassured me. They told me the package was 100% insured. They told me when it arrived back with them and now it is on the way back to me. The dealer demands the package is signed for. When i have not been home they have gone to a collection point and i pick them up with ID and sign for them. I usually used the gold.de price comparison site to find the best deals.

Great post sixgun.

You point out exactly why German dealers are often able to beat even the Estonian 0% VAT competition on Silver price because the vat is charged at marginal rate on their profit rather than on the sale price.  Obviously that applies to silver and not gold which is free of VAT everywhere.  The German rules allowing this mean that Germany has the biggest share of the Silver bullion dealing market in Europe.  It's just a little cheat of the EU rules but it amuses me that it is Germany that has this loophole.

Yes.  Make sure that whoever you buy from is going to have it sent by a reputable and insured international courier.

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12 minutes ago, silversky said:

Great post sixgun.

You point out exactly why German dealers are often able to beat even the Estonian 0% VAT competition on Silver price because the vat is charged at marginal rate on their profit rather than on the sale price.  Obviously that applies to silver and not gold which is free of VAT everywhere.  The German rules allowing this mean that Germany has the biggest share of the Silver bullion dealing market in Europe.  It's just a little cheat of the EU rules but it amuses me that it is Germany that has this loophole.

Yes.  Make sure that whoever you buy from is going to have it sent by a reputable and insured international courier.

 

The thing that gets me is there are Philharmonics and silver bars at Hatton Garden Metals right now. They are charging VAT on them.

The VAT was already paid and collected by the pirates. These items should be marginal rate scheme with tax on the profit only. Atkinsons sometimes does this on pre-owned silver but it should be done all the time. The pirates are getting their cake and eating it.

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

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Do the DSR actually apply for bullion?  Most of the UK dealers seem to say clearly they don't when you are checking out.

 

Even the dealer you recommend, Chards;

Clarification

Most of the silver coins, bars, and many other items, are exempt from the Distance Selling regulations.

 

As it says on their gold sovereign site.

 

I certainly don't worry about buying from European sellers as the regulations are usually at least as good as the UK's.  Estonia is a different thing because you are contracting with another company to collect your goods and deliver them to you iirc.

 

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15 hours ago, sixgun said:

When you buy coins you need to think of the exit strategy.

You do not want to load up on big ticket items in the liquid part of your portfolio. By liquid i mean, the coins you have for a rainy day and you might have to sell in a hurry. Expect to get around spot for these.

Gold is the way forward in Europe. In the UK sovereigns are the choice. No tax when you buy and no tax when you sell. They are a small size and you can pick them up a close to spot. You can also sell them close to spot so there is no loss. You might be lucky and get a collector coin along the way but basic sovereign are very liquid with no slippage.

Silver outside North America and probably Australia, silver gets hammered by markups and tax. If you needed to sell in a hurry you could well be looking at a loss even if you managed to get them VAT free or low VAT.

Your best source of silver is Germany which runs the marginal tax scheme and dealers only tax their profit on the coin, not the full pre-tax price. Due to competition you can get some good prices which beat Estonia. i would load up on solid coins like Perth Lunars - Roosters/Monkey coins. These have the collector element so you may well get an extra bang for your buck if you don't have to sell in a hurry. I have used several BIG German dealers on several occassions (no fly by night outfits). They have all used UPS, like Celtic Gold does. The packages were fully insured. I had a problem very recently b/c the wrong postcode got on the package. My old postcode (don't know how that happened) but as there was a mismatched UPS sent it back to Germany. The dealer reassured me. They told me the package was 100% insured. They told me when it arrived back with them and now it is on the way back to me. The dealer demands the package is signed for. When i have not been home they have gone to a collection point and i pick them up with ID and sign for them. I usually used the gold.de price comparison site to find the best deals.

I have bought from silvertogo a few times, you can pay in pounds sterling and their prices and service make them better than Estonia where you have to convert to Euros and all kind of hassle.

thanks for the suggestions there, I like the idea of comparison sites to see where is the cheapest.

i do t have any sovereigns, where is the best place to get them at spot?

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