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FriedrichVonHayek

Customs Importation Codes

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30 minutes ago, HelpingHands said:

It sounds like they are confusing it with the silver version of the circulating £2 coin with Britannia on.

 

http://blog.royalmint.com/britannia-returns-circualting-coins/

 

Yes i think you are right. So i have asked for clarification, specifically asking if this coin is a circulating coin

https://www.royalmintbullion.com/Products/Britannia/Silver/UKB17SS

[Of course it isn't]

 

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i think we may be missing a trick here ;)

These rules apply to collector's pieces of numismatic interest. 

Others are restricting the extent of the rules to coins. HMRC say collectors' pieces of numismatic interest.

So what is numismatic - it is a coin or medal in the dictionary.

There are various items people here might collect. Coins, medals, tokens and rounds.

By my reckoning:

A coin is currency and is legal tender. 
A token is currency but not legal tender.
 

Other pieces are neither token nor coins.

Medals are numismatic according to the dictionary. If HMRC only meant coins they would have said coins but they said collectors' pieces of numismatic interest.

So medals are 5% VAT b/c they are numismatic.

There is a lot of discussion about Chinese medals on this forum. When i put one of these medals alongside a so-called round i don't see any material difference.

What is a medal and what is a round?

Are rounds actually medals and as such should be 5% VAT?

 

Edited by sixgun

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14 minutes ago, HelpingHands said:

I think 'round' is a term only used in the US.

 

I have seen the term 'round' used in the UK but i agree the term is much more widely used in the US.

https://atkinsonsbullion.com/silver/silver-coins/1oz-silver-coins/pre-owned-1oz-silver-round 

I think we need to go back to what numismatic is. We see coins classified by our community as numismatic and semi-numismatic. What i mean by this is the more numismatic a coin is the more i paid for the coin over and above the metal content. 

If we look at the Provident Metals website

http://blog.providentmetals.com/gold-and-silver-bullion-investing/rounds-numismatic-and-bullion-coins-whats-the-difference.htm

We see they say 

"The value of a numismatic coin lies in its historical significance, rarity and condition. In other words, its value is not tied to the actual value of the metal content; instead the value usually exceeds the worth of the actual metal."

Often rounds produced in the US are very little above the spot price of silver. Then there are what they call rounds which are quite a bit above spot and people collect them. I am referring to the likes of Silver Shield and Privateers pieces.

So i would say the Silver Shield pieces where there is a large collector community and you are paying significantly above spot prices and you don't buy them primarily for their silver content, these are medals and as such should be VAT'd at 5%.
If a retailer then were to sell them, they would be at 20% VAT. Even in Germany, Norway and Estonia these numismatic pieces would attract full VAT as they are not coins; but this is a resale issue not an import one.

Edited by sixgun

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i sent this to Silver Shield to see what they say. I think it is worth chasing this. I actually like their product but then i see the difference in prices between Europe and the US.

i am a member of thesilverforum.com. This is a UK based forum where members are interested in precious metal coins and medals.
I like a number of the silver products of SSSB but being in the UK they attract VAT at 20% when sold by dealers. 
It is possible to buy zero or very low taxed silver coins inside the EU but as SSSB products are not silver coins they are taxed at the full VAT rate throughout the EU.
There is a discussion going on on one of the threads
http://thesilverforum.com/topic/7752-customs-importation-codes/
Here we are discussing VAT on imported silver pieces.
Collectors' pieces of numismatic interest attract 5% VAT on import and not the full 20% VAT.
So a private collector can import numismatic silver pieces from the US with 5% VAT levied by customs.
Most people are unaware of this rule and the customs slap 20% VAT on everything and most people will never reclaim the overpaid tax.
Those aware of the rule [not many] have presumed this ruling applies to coins but the customs have not said this, they say collector's pieces of numismatic interest. A numismatic coin is legal tender where you pay above the face value or significantly above the spot metal value. Other than the very cheapest coins, most silver coins are in reality numismatic.
Numismatic in my dictionary includes coins and medals.
In the UK there is an interest in medals. To my eye medals and rounds look the same. 
SSSB product is certainly of collector interest but is it numismatic? 
In the US the product is classified as rounds. Bearing in mind medals don't look any different from rounds, does the SSSB actually make medals?
If SSSB were to classify its product as collectors' pieces of numismatic interest - ie collector medals, it might be possible to get them imported at 5% VAT and not the current swinging 20%. 

I would appreciate your opinion.

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18 minutes ago, sixgun said:

i sent this to Silver Shield to see what they say. I think it is worth chasing this. I actually like their product but then i see the difference in prices between Europe and the US.

i am a member of thesilverforum.com. This is a UK based forum where members are interested in precious metal coins and medals.
I like a number of the silver products of SSSB but being in the UK they attract VAT at 20% when sold by dealers. 
It is possible to buy zero or very low taxed silver coins inside the EU but as SSSB products are not silver coins they are taxed at the full VAT rate throughout the EU.
There is a discussion going on on one of the threads
http://thesilverforum.com/topic/7752-customs-importation-codes/
Here we are discussing VAT on imported silver pieces.
Collectors' pieces of numismatic interest attract 5% VAT on import and not the full 20% VAT.
So a private collector can import numismatic silver pieces from the US with 5% VAT levied by customs.
Most people are unaware of this rule and the customs slap 20% VAT on everything and most people will never reclaim the overpaid tax.
Those aware of the rule [not many] have presumed this ruling applies to coins but the customs have not said this, they say collector's pieces of numismatic interest. A numismatic coin is legal tender where you pay above the face value or significantly above the spot metal value. Other than the very cheapest coins, most silver coins are in reality numismatic.
Numismatic in my dictionary includes coins and medals.
In the UK there is an interest in medals. To my eye medals and rounds look the same. 
SSSB product is certainly of collector interest but is it numismatic? 
In the US the product is classified as rounds. Bearing in mind medals don't look any different from rounds, does the SSSB actually make medals?
If SSSB were to classify its product as collectors' pieces of numismatic interest - ie collector medals, it might be possible to get them imported at 5% VAT and not the current swinging 20%. 

I would appreciate your opinion.

I think that the Silver Shield type products (Rounds,Medallions,etc) are classed Exonumia and not Numismatic.

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36 minutes ago, FriedrichVonHayek said:

I think that the Silver Shield type products (Rounds,Medallions,etc) are classed Exonumia and not Numismatic.

yes i believe Silver Shield products are 'exonumia' in that they are medals. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exonumia

Definition of exonumia

  1. :  numismatic items (as tokens, medals, or scrip) other than coins and paper money

Origin and Etymology of exonumia

New Latin, from exo- + English numismatic + New Latin -ia

HRMC rules apply to collectors' pieces of numismatic interest.

If HMRC intended this to apply only to coins they would not have used the word 'pieces' they would have used the word 'coins.' Every word is deliberate.

This applies to anything numismatic. Exonumia are according to the dictionary numismatic so the HMRC ruling applies.  

 

Edited by sixgun

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Hi Guys & Happy New Year

I'll save you a little trouble

I proved under UK law that Bullion coins are numismatics and should have the 5% vat applied not 20% I even won the Parliamentary complaint through the ombudsman against the UK borderforce for what it was worth However 

HMRC then came back with under the European harmonisation process and due to a hidden apex in the European tax laws under which we all have to comply it is 20%

European Law overrides UK law

So untill Brexit happens its 20% afterwards however 5% :-)

Sincerely martin

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So the pirates are flying under the EU flag with this one. 

i got a reply from Royal Mint about the silver Britannia. It is not a circulating coin, it is a commemorative. A commemorative is clearly a collectors' piece and so comes under the 5% VAT when the pirates sail under the Ensign whilst plundering.

No law overrides English law, it is High Treason, imagining the death of the Sovereign [no pun intended] and anyone who attempts to do this shall be hanged. This is very much the law but since every blighter in Parliament is a traitor they overlook this technicality.  

Customer Services

11:41 AM (22 minutes ago)
cleardot.gif
 
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to me
cleardot.gif

Thank you for your e-mail.

 

The Silver Britannia is not a circulation coin it is a commemorative the same as a Sovereign. The £2 circulation coin bears a portrait of Britannia and is a circulation coin made of cupro nickel

 

Regards

Customer Services

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1 hour ago, sixgun said:

So the pirates are flying under the EU flag with this one. 

i got a reply from Royal Mint about the silver Britannia. It is not a circulating coin, it is a commemorative. A commemorative is clearly a collectors' piece and so comes under the 5% VAT when the pirates sail under the Ensign whilst plundering.

No law overrides English law, it is High Treason, imagining the death of the Sovereign [no pun intended] and anyone who attempts to do this shall be hanged. This is very much the law but since every blighter in Parliament is a traitor they overlook this technicality.  

Customer Services

11:41 AM (22 minutes ago)
cleardot.gif
 
cleardot.gif
cleardot.gif
to me
cleardot.gif

Thank you for your e-mail.

 

The Silver Britannia is not a circulation coin it is a commemorative the same as a Sovereign. The £2 circulation coin bears a portrait of Britannia and is a circulation coin made of cupro nickel

 

Regards

Customer Services

I'd like to see them argue that the other way...  It has a monetary value, ergo it is eligible to be circulated.  The Royal Mint, HMRC nor the Treasury can pronounce on whether people do use them for normal purchases, only that they might be allowed to.  And they might, because the Britannia has a Face Value.  So does a Sovereign.

It seems they make it up to suit whichever question they are trying to answer.

Rogues.

Edited by Clens92

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My silver coins ( carded RAM Kangaroos ) from Australia arrived yesterday and the numismatic / collectibles commodity code of 97.05.00.020 declared.
Despite this clearly shown, full VAT was charged so I have just completed a Border Force form to try and have the VAT reduced to 5%.

 

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11 minutes ago, Pete said:

My silver coins ( carded RAM Kangaroos ) from Australia arrived yesterday and the numismatic / collectibles commodity code of 97.05.00.020 declared.
Despite this clearly shown, full VAT was charged so I have just completed a Border Force form to try and have the VAT reduced to 5%.

 

Ridiculous. 

I don't think they even bother checking them now; just slap 20% on and hope the recipient doesn't have the energy to apply for the refund.

 

Best of luck getting it back!

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On 5 January 2017 at 16:33, Clens92 said:

Ridiculous. 

I don't think they even bother checking them now; just slap 20% on and hope the recipient doesn't have the energy to apply for the refund.

 

Best of luck getting it back!

Yes I think you are right unfortunately.

 

its not like you are able to reason with them, they have all the power, they could give you the run around and come up with all kinds of problems for you.

 

dont rock the boat

On 5 January 2017 at 16:21, Pete said:

My silver coins ( carded RAM Kangaroos ) from Australia arrived yesterday and the numismatic / collectibles commodity code of 97.05.00.020 declared.
Despite this clearly shown, full VAT was charged so I have just completed a Border Force form to try and have the VAT reduced to 5%.

 

Can you update the outcome? Is it much trouble to go to?

 

did you pay the 20% plus £8 handling charge?

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4 hours ago, RareAGstrikes said:

Can you update the outcome? Is it much trouble to go to?
did you pay the 20% plus £8 handling charge?

I paid 20% VAT on the contents including the $40 Australian postage and £8 fee.

I have written to Border Force with a claim to have the VAT recalculated using 5% and not 20%.
If I obtain a refund I will post here but it might take a few weeks to hear back from them.

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20 minutes ago, Pete said:

I paid 20% VAT on the contents including the $40 Australian postage and £8 fee.

I have written to Border Force with a claim to have the VAT recalculated using 5% and not 20%.
If I obtain a refund I will post here but it might take a few weeks to hear back from them.

 

Is this the form you completed?

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/581510/bor286.pdf

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On 12/01/2017 at 22:00, sixgun said:

Yes - fill in this form and supply supporting documentation.
I just received a letter from them this weekend advising that they will be issuing a refund for the VAT overcharged working the VAT at 5% instead of 20%.

:D

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2 hours ago, Pete said:

Yes - fill in this form and supply supporting documentation.
I just received a letter from them this weekend advising that they will be issuing a refund for the VAT overcharged working the VAT at 5% instead of 20%.

:D

do you still have to pay the £8 handling fee?

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Just sounds like so much trouble to go to.

 

there is a chance it gets through customs unmolested if you don't put the importation codes, so you have option one where you definitely pay 5% plus £8 customs fees, or option 2 where you may pay 20% plus the £8 with a chance of not paying anything at all if your package makes it through unmolested.

Edited by RareAGstrikes

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On 21/01/2017 at 22:41, sovereignsteve said:

do you still have to pay the £8 handling fee?

Yes - this fee is mandatory and bears no relationship to to the contents or VAT rates.

It is raised by ParcelForce who process the International post and is non negotiable.

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Money Order for the VAT refund arrived today - well done HMRC - pity no-one read the declaration in the first place and saved us all the time-wasting effort.
I reckon the Border Agents VAT Man's motto is - NISI REUS DUM

Translated - "Guilty until proved otherwise"
1. Ignore the declaration unless you can add import duty.
2. Bill the full 20% VAT on the basis the recipient is ignorant or will not challenge the fees.

 

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29 minutes ago, Pete said:

Money Order for the VAT refund arrived today - well done HMRC - pity no-one read the declaration in the first place and saved us all the time-wasting effort.
I reckon the Border Agents VAT Man's motto is - NISI REUS DUM

Translated - "Guilty until proved otherwise"
1. Ignore the declaration unless you can add import duty.
2. Bill the full 20% VAT on the basis the recipient is ignorant or will not challenge the fees.

 

I've had them blatantly ignore the stated value on a "gift" and charge VAT. I reclaimed it but it was a real faff to do. Got the full amount back including the handling fee:)

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2 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

I've had them blatantly ignore the stated value on a "gift" and charge VAT. I reclaimed it but it was a real faff to do. Got the full amount back including the handling fee:)

The rules are 

VAT

You pay VAT on goods sent from non-European Union (EU) countries and EUspecial territories (eg the Canary Islands) if they’re:

If the item is declared as a gift, it is worth more than £39 and it is sent from outside the EU you are telling them to charge VAT.

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