Non-fiat Lunar Panda Questions

[Orchestral]

Hi guys. I'm pretty new so I have a few questions; Does this series have quality control issues? I ask because my Panda Lunar Monkey has 3 little chips, two on the rim and one on the panda and upon asking Andrew from chinesemedals.com for a replacement or refund he said 'Definitely!', but also showed me several NGC PF70's Lunar Monkeys with edge scuffs and said 'Even the Mona Lisa isn't perfect'. Now I know what he's saying but when paying £180 for 2 ounces of silver I think it's okay to expect a dent free coin (regardless of mintage), if not a 'perfect' one. Having said that, I also have a PCGS PR70 Panda Lunar Goat which has a little excess silver on the edge which is slightly indented, hence the question about quality control. Should I revise my expectations for this series? And would you ask for a refund for the 2016 Panda Monkey below if you received it yourself? Do you think it'd cause problems when selling it in the future?

 

Basically I'm trying to ascertain if I'm being unreasonable or have unrealistic expectations because everyone else seems to have problem free Lunar Pandas. All of my Shanghai Expo coins (5 so far) are flawless!

 

[Orchestral]

Here's some of Andrew's NGC PF70 panda with problems. I notice the issues with his are only on the edges and perhaps that's why they still get a NGC's PF70? Maybe I missing something here but if these are a PF70 then NGC's grading criteria is a total mystery to me!

[mondy41]

Personally I would expect a problem free coin if paying such a premium. Depending who buys your coin it should/would be an issue.

The remark with regards to the 'mona lisa' IMO is a standard response used by the person you spoke with.  If they are willing to exchange you should exchange sounds like you are not happy with the coin so why keep it.

I dont understand how your graded coin got PR70 with the faults you have highlighted. I am not a fan of graded silver anyhow as they can still milk spot in the slab. 

Would like to hear other people's comment on graded coin.

[Orchestral]

Out of the 9 Panda Goats sent to PCGS so far mine pictured above and 4 others are PR70. NGC are also grading them as 70's despite rather obvious flaws. I don't get it.

These are my first graded coins, I understand grading the older stuff but I'm still trying to make up my mind about grading modern coins/medals.

At this rate I'm going to give up the low mintage stuff and stack bullion only. I was explaining the ultra low mintage non-fiat stuff to a friend and realised it sounded a bit like a Ponzi scheme! 

[Guest]

Just checked 5 graded ones including antique all 69/70



Found one issue and this was graded by NGC as 70 when I sent it in myself.

If anything is second rate Andy will swap it out but my experience with panda Lunar and Shenyang has been good.



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[Orchestral]

Thanks for the replies guys, much appreciated. Managed a closer pic of the edge on that goat, that particular one was from dragonzeng168 by the way.

 

[Clens92]

It throws up questions about exactly how the grading companies treat these 'from source' coins.  I'd imagine they're paid a certain amount, and the minting company expects a certain number of MS70 / PF70 coins :/

[Guest]

Bulk grading can raise suspicions but I have independently submitted and got 70 with similar issues


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[TheWhiteStuff]

Yea i think it will cause problems when you try to sell it. I don't understand proof or grading coins. I got put off from proofs because my first lot  had little defects like yours. I complained and got a discount. Like you say why pay £180 when you can get better bullion coins.. You could throw your bullion at the wall a few times and it would still look better than that proof.

[Orchestral]

Sorry for posting non silver in the silver section but here's a hat-trick. After poor quality from chinesemedals.com and dragonzeng168, I now present luckpawnshop.com's offerings.

 

[Orchestral]

In conclusion; I'm personally going to stick with fiat coins. You may get lucky speculating on these low mintage coins alongside those promoting them but I certainly feel like I’ve been burnt so would advise caution;

Make sure you see a picture of the exact coin you’re purchasing and if you don’t then expect to be sending some of them back to East Asia tracked at around £15 per coin from the UK, these guys seem to like to try fob off their inferior stock on new customers.

I would also suggest that if too many people experience what I have then these coin will not become popular, regardless of mintage.

[Guest]

In conclusion; I'm personally going to stick with fiat coins. You may get lucky speculating on these low mintage coins alongside those promoting them but I certainly feel like I’ve been burnt so would advise caution;



Make sure you see a picture of the exact coin you’re purchasing and if you don’t then expect to be sending some of them back to East Asia tracked at around £15 per coin from the UK, these guys seem to like to try fob off their inferior stock on new customers.



I would also suggest that if too many people experience what I have then these coin will not become popular, regardless of mintage.

Sorry you had these problems. It probably seems like it's all non-Fiat or all Chinese but in truth it's the luck of the draw.

I have bought countless non Fiat from Chinese medals and dragon with maybe 1 return only. In the last two weeks I ordered a 2015 gold proof set from Apmex that had 2 inferior coins and was returned yesterday



I ordered a 30g omp gold panda from pinehurst and the omp plastic was split and the coin is in the process of being swapped.



I understand that you feel aggrieved and upset but it is not limited to Dragon or lucky both of whom try really hard as far as I can see but also us mint Canadian mint royal mint china mint and casa de momdeo to name but a few.



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[Orchestral]

You're probably right Numi but (please don't take this personally!) it's starting to look like if you're a regular customer that spends a lot of money you'll get preferential treatment. Also, if a guy was promoting a product that I was selling I'd ensure he doesn't receive a bad one, we all would! These two arrived this morning from Dragonzeng168, they aren't as bad as some of the others I've received but I'm still disappointed.

[Guest]

You're probably right Numi but (please don't take this personally!) it's starting to look like if you're a regular customer that spends a lot of money you'll get preferential treatment. Also, if a guy was promoting a product that I was selling I'd ensure he doesn't receive a bad one, we all would! These two arrived this morning from Dragonzeng168, they aren't as bad as some of the others I've received but I'm still disappointed.

It's an interesting conspiracy theory but absolutely wrong at many levels.

1. Many deliveries I get that have multiples are joined together pre snipped that shows they just gave me the next strip along.

2. At least 3 people got better average grades than me for these medals look at Deputy Dogs Nanjing Pandas he scored a world high score and better than mine.

3. Chinese medals dispatches in China and is hq in Singapore and a hut in China takes them out of a box and mails them. Mine have no special treatment.

Might also be worth noting that medals with these small blemishes are known to achieve 69 or 70.

Take a look at Mr Vegitas video on Royal Mint proof beasts- my experience with medals is much better than Royal Mint right now.


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[Orchestral]

Thanks for the clarification Numi, much appreciated. Sorry if I came across rude, I'm a little frustrated. I'm back to my original question though, should I adjust my expectations for these coins? And if so, which of the above coins photographed, if any, would you consider unacceptable and return? Do blemishes on the edges in particular matter less with regard to grading? Presumably then all these could sill achieve high grades despite the problems but would surely sell for less, if at all.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the clarification Numi, much appreciated. Sorry if I came across rude, I'm a little frustrated. I'm back to my original question though, should I adjust my expectations for these coins? And if so, which of the above coins photographed, if any, would you consider unacceptable and return? Do blemishes on the edges in particular matter less with regard to grading? Presumably then all these could sill achieve high grades despite the problems but would surely sell for less, if at all.

 

I think graded coins sell for a fairly consistent amount. These edge marks I have seen on 70 graded coins.

I would send back any modern coin that I felt would get under a 68 or 69. Any that look awful, any that have bad water marking. Some ranges are better than others. You rarely see a bad Shenyang panda lunar. The 16 Nanjing Pandas were amazing.

There is always a risk buying from China because of the distance and the return postage costs.

On the other hand Nanjing panda 16 in copper mintage 299 and $50 at intro.... NGC 70 last sale $230 and consistently $180 to $220 so not a bad return


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[Silverstackeruk]

I don't believe anyone gets special treatment as I was speaking with Andrew last week and asked him to pick me out the good ones but he insisted that non of the coins are checked and are shipped out as soon as they receive them..Don't think he has time to check every coin. Saying that I would be upset if mine turn up like that but then again a few years in storage a perfect coin will probably get spots anyway..

[Orchestral]

The only one I've sent back so far is the 2015 Lunar Panda Monkey, the very first coin pictured. I'm pretty new to stacking and collecting, I have no idea what would get below a 68 any more, I thought I had a good idea but the examples of graded coins I've shown above have confused me.
I've invested a little over £2000 and this has been my experience so far:

dragonzeng168
3/8 coins have problems:
PCGS70 Lunar Panda Goat - excess silver on edge which is dented. Photo above.
Copper 4th expo - Small dark nebulous blemish on coin face, near edge. Photo above.
Antique 4th expo - Small light patch on edge. Photo above.

luckpawnshop.com
2/3 coins have problems, 2 boxes have glue all over them:
2015 Nanjing Brass - Rim looks uneven Panda side, scratched edge on the Great Wall side. Some glue on box. Photo above.
2015 Nanjing Copper - Small dark blemish on coin edge. Lots of glue on box. Photo above.

chinesemedals.com
1/1 coins have problems:
Lunar Panda Monkey, 3 chips, 1 on panda's crotch, 2 on coin's edge. Photo above. * Refund offered, sent back. *

Still waiting on: 1 graded coin from dragonzeng168 and 3 pre-ordered roosters from chinesemedals.

[Guest]

The only one I've sent back so far is the 2015 Lunar Panda Monkey, the very first coin pictured. I'm pretty new to stacking and collecting, I have no idea what would get below a 68 any more, I thought I had a good idea but the examples of graded coins I've shown above have confused me.
I've invested a little over £2000 and this has been my experience so far:

dragonzeng168
3/8 coins have problems:
PCGS70 Lunar Panda Goat - excess silver on edge which is dented. Photo above.
Copper 4th expo - Small dark nebulous blemish on coin face, near edge. Photo above.
Antique 4th expo - Small light patch on edge. Photo above.

luckpawnshop.com
2/3 coins have problems, 2 boxes have glue all over them:
2015 Nanjing Brass - Rim looks uneven Panda side, scratched edge on the Great Wall side. Some glue on box. Photo above.
2015 Nanjing Copper - Small dark blemish on coin edge. Lots of glue on box. Photo above.

chinesemedals.com
1/1 coins have problems:
Lunar Panda Monkey, 3 chips, 1 on panda's crotch, 2 on coin's edge. Photo above. * Refund offered, sent back. *

Still waiting on: 1 graded coin from dragonzeng168 and 3 pre-ordered roosters from chinesemedals.

I hear you. ...

Royal Mint

1/4 qb returned4 times
Premium gold Britannia set returned and replaces
Many capsules chipped and returned
Premium Sov set returned and replaced

Maybe 75% of purchases not problem free




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[Orchestral]

Sorry to hear it Numi, that really sucks, I too have had problems with the Royal Mint. At least you knew you should return them though, I now don't know whether to return these or grade them!

[Guest]

So you


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Sorry to hear it Numi, that really sucks, I too have had problems with the Royal Mint. At least you knew you should return them though, I now don't know whether to return these or grade them!

If you are unhappy ask for a swap. I sent this thread to Dragon Andy and lucky for comment and I'm sure all of them will do all they can


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[sovereignsteve]

The question is, and something I don't know as I haven't much experience with these non-fiat Chinese medals, are the edges always supposed to be perfect? there are a lot of coins, especially 2 oz and even Perth Mint, that are a bit imperfect round the edges.

[Orchestral]

Andrew from ChineseMedals.com doesn’t seem too keen to swap if I’m not happy.

I pre-ordered one silver Rooster via email in November and purchased a silver and antique combo via chinesemedalscom’s ebay 3 weeks ago, I messaged Andrew today because I've seen people starting to receive them but the tracking number he provided isn't valid. I asked for the correct tracking number, to which he replied:

Have you decide on the monkey panda ? Return or keep ?

Need to know it before I ship the rooster panda.

If return the monkey. Also good to cancel the rooster because I cannot 100 % guarantee on it. As you know western mint and china mint cannot fulfil your full satisfication even the coin/medal grade as pf70 by ngc or pcgs

Andrew Lai

He's referencing the coin pictured, it was sent back five days ago and should be with him any day now for the refund he offered. He wouldn't swap. Remember, this was my very first coin from Andrew with three more on order. Now, maybe this is just poorly translated friendly advice, but it doesn't come across particularly well.

I was expecting those Roosters any day now but may as well cancel them since:

No mint, western nor Chinese, can fulfil my full satisfaction of not having dents in my coins! Not even 'Chinese Medals - Craftsmanship at it's best!'

[Guest]

It's a fine line between being discriminating and a pain lol. Andy sometimes lacks bedside manner but I have found him to be a good guy to know. I have only ever had one problem and was down some cash as a result and he made sure I didn't lose out. This area has tons of potential but is more frontier than some other areas. For me that adds interest but I'm the first to acknowledge that it is not for everyone ))


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[Orchestral]

A few weeks ago Andrew suggested that he send me photos of the medals that I had already ordered and thought were on the way.. he finally got back to me today with the photos of the coins that I ordered late November, out of the 4 proofs he's shown me (I ordered 2) all 4 have problems, 2 have the same dents as the monkey I sent back, and the 3 antiques he says he has left, 1 of which I ordered, aren't problem free either. Some of the proof problems look like they're on the capsule but he says that if I accept them he'll not accept a return/refund!  He says he has a NGC PF70 with the same dents as the monkey that I sent back, the implication being that the problem is with me, not the coins!

Wow, what piss poor service! I'm going to ask him to refund the money, just under £700 that he's had of mine for over a month, I'm also going to write up my experience to warn others. He went beyond 'lacking bedside manner' in the way he dealt with me Numi, a first time customer who wanted a replacement for a problem coin.

I'd like to thank everyone who offered their advice.