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Greece


watchesandwhisky

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that's only half the picture how much a country owes and how much other countries owes it

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On 19/02/2017 at 23:03, 4Nines7Hills said:

that's only half the picture how much a country owes and how much other countries owes it

Of course it is half of the picture. My point was that when one calls a country or its citizens profligate, one has to take into account other countries that don't fare much better.

At one point in the early 2000s Germany did not fulfill any of the requirements to join the Euro, yet they were allowed time to get back into the parameters, God knows using which accounting tricks.

I don't remember anybody calling the German people lazy or profligate at the time.

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 several countess should not been  allowed in as they didn't meet the criteria, yet in a rush to expand euro zone at any cost they let them in.

 there are also many reports which I haven't put effort into validating ,  that for many years tax in Greece was almost optional with many declaring far less income than they earn  and thus Greece can't afford the generous public  pensions and other services the country offers .

 

 because there isn't both a monetary and fiscal policy in place in the euro zone and they let countries in that shouldn't be in  the euro is dead and it with take the EU with it .

 

I agree the state of the UK ecconomy to debt isn't brilliant either.

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

As a Greek what's your assessment of the situation then @noobcollector . i dont live in Greece so can only go on officially reported financial figures and reports 2001 to present.

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Take your point @noobcollector regarding anecdotal details however as a Scotsman it's fair to say many Scots would be way off the mark detailing the state of our economy/political direction, whereas someone who has studied the stats and never stepped a foot in the country may be best placed to provide a more accurate assessment of the current situation. (Pause for breath?)

“Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.” Oscillate Wildly

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Well it is hard to sum it up in a brief post. Some key points are:

Greek debt has risen from almost 95% to more than double (200%) after the IMF and ESM program. (Some argue that it is because of the slow pace of implementing the actual program, which would be understandable if there were results in the fields that were following the guidelines, but clearly, this was not the case). 

It is a lie that Greek corporations & citizens don't pay taxes (more than half of what you make goes to taxes, even at the range of 12k/year), they don't work enough, they spend too much, they are corrupted, etc. I mean of course some of them do, but more or less at the same percentage as Italy or France or Spain.

This is spot on, KDave:

Either way the Euro is taking a hit. It is impossible for Greece to pay back the debt is already has, and the bail outs are simply adding debt to pay off old debt. It is madness. It is therefore in the interest of Germany to keep this going on for as long as possible and not accept reality. On the flip side, the longer the this goes on the worse it is for Greece both socially and economically

There are major political mistakes, from all the political parties (we have had elections like 5 times in 7 years), which are being done in purpose, so that the parties don't lose all their voters and more importantly to keep their fellow governors out of jail.

Greek families have taken a huge blow, many people have lost everything, a lot have left the country and the social crisis is getting worse every day. Seing people eating from the trashcans is something we didn't witness since WWII.

Speaking of war, I think that it is great for EU and USA to have a wounded Greece right now, maybe even the Russians. See, the Middle East is as always on fire, Syria, Egypt, Algeria and Turkey have had coups/civil wars etc, ISIS is introduced, and right between all them and EU, there s Greece. So why not have some leverage before asking for anything that has to do with military bases / ports / airports?

The Greek crisis is a combination of EU and US lobbies pushing, combined with incompetent politicians who care about their own problems. The people won't revolt since most of us believe in the european vision and besides, we need to keep together against an aggresive neighbour country (who took over half Cyprus last time we were too busy with our domestic political problems).

I also think that there is always a crisis. You can't have capitalism without crisis, it is its nature. Yesterday was Lehman Brothers, today it is Greece, tomorrow it will be someone else. 

Please excuse my English, I hope I didn't make many mistakes!

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Boots on the ground.

Thanks noobs, a topic is not complete without balance.

In my experience, the Greek people are neither corrupt nor profligate. Their government?...well.

Stereotypes. 

I was going to pop out for some jellied eels but it's a real pea souper out there.

Technically, alcohol is a solution..

'It [socialism] poses a growing threat, however unintentional, to the freedom of this country, for there is no freedom where the State totally controls the economy. Personal freedom and economic freedom are indivisible. You can’t have one without the other. You can’t lose one without losing the other.'

"There is no such thing as public money, there is only taxpayers' money"

Let not England forget her precedence of teaching nations how to live.

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The first time I visited Greece was in the late '60s.

We didn't use Thompson or easyjet, we drove there. In a Vauxhall Viva.

I have fond memories. Great time, great country, great people.

Time for bed. :)

Technically, alcohol is a solution..

'It [socialism] poses a growing threat, however unintentional, to the freedom of this country, for there is no freedom where the State totally controls the economy. Personal freedom and economic freedom are indivisible. You can’t have one without the other. You can’t lose one without losing the other.'

"There is no such thing as public money, there is only taxpayers' money"

Let not England forget her precedence of teaching nations how to live.

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