Greece

[Abbotssilvercoins]

It is politics that has meant the Eurozone have agreed to a third bailout, not financial sound sense.  Ludicrous though it is, Greece needed a large sum of capital loaned to it in order to make a large debt repayment from a previous large capital loan.  It is a simple game of "avoid a default at all costs".  It is cheaper to throw more money after bad, both financially and politically, than to risk the fallout from a default.  The problem is that if a default of Greek debt is declared, then Banks have all sold insurance policies to one another against the Sovereign Greek Debt not being repaid.  It will only take one Bank to consider Greece as having "defaulted" to then make the phone call to another bank to claim on their insurance policy and all of a sudden all banks will do this and they will all implode.  If that happened we would all be wishing to be transported back to the far sounder economic times of 2007.......

[HelpingHands]

Tsipras doesn't seem to like hearing the truth here.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=94UcyJnRcGU

[HighlandTiger]

Tsipras doesn't seem to like hearing the truth here.

 

 

Farage at his best there..........

[Pete]

Found this extract that sums up everything nicely -

 

 

Just in case anyone's wondering why Greece is in the Bin.

Experts mandated by the European Union to investigate the causes that led Greece to the current economic situation relate the following facts: 

Greece falsified its accounts to enter the euro zone and has distorted the facts until it finally exploded. There was massive retirements at the age of 50 years.  At Evangelismos hospital there were 50 drivers for officials' cars, and on average there were 45 gardeners for a small lawn with 4 bushes.

Greece has the highest population in the world of people reporting an age of 110 years. The deaths are often not registered and pensions continue to be received. The European Union had found that there are families receiving 4-5 monthly pensions which they are not supposed to get. There were still pensions paid to persons who died in 1953, 60+ years ago. 40,000 girls received monthly life pension of 1,000 euros for the simple fact that they were unmarried daughters of deceased civil servants. This, at a cost to the state coffers  of €550 million euros per year. Now they will receive pensions only up to the age of 18.

The pacemakers in Greek hospitals were acquired at a price 400 times higher than in British hospitals. In Greece, many workers have benefited from early retirement, set at 50 years for women and 55 for men who belong to one of the 600 job categories identified as particularly painful among which included;

- Hairdressers (because of dyes that may be considered harmful)

-  musicians of wind instruments (blowing into a flute is exhausting)

- TV presenters (the microphones are supposed to cause damage to health). 

**** This law was adopted by the Socialist government of 1978.

There are thousands of ridiculous "tricks" departments and unnecessary institutions, which many Greeks live off. For example, The Institute for the Protection of Kopais Lake, a dry lake since 1930.

In the last decade, Greece has created over 300 new public companies. Tax evasion is massive, over 25% of Greeks do not pay a penny on personal income tax. In addition, the weight of the public sector in the economy is overwhelming. There are about one million officials to 4,000,000 active people.

Greek public railways: The average salary of employees exceeds €66.000.- per year. And this includes cleaners and other non-skilled workers. The (almost free) Athens Metro delivers about 90 million tickets a year, while the total cost of this public company exceeds the 500 million needed.

The French retirees receive, on average, 51% of the last salary, the Germans 40%, North Americans 41% Japanese 34%.  

Meanwhile, Greek pensioners receive 

96%

 of their final salary.

Greece has four times more teachers than Finland, the best situated country in the last PISA report, while the student performance in Greeece is the lowest among many European countries by comparison.

AS AN APPARENT SHOW OF GOODWILL TO THE EU, THE GREEK GOVERNMENT ELIMINATED 10,000 POSTAL OFFICIAL POSITIONS, OF WHICH 8,200 WERE DUMMY IDENTITIES !!                                                                            

 

[AuFinger]

It's not just Greece though. We're all in the crap.

It's just yet to come home to roost, but our debt to GDP to ratios are just as unsustainable and have worsened way beyond what any growth could offset by now, bar high and aggressive inflation.

Just look at the crazy benefits, pension promises and duck house moats that our politicians get in the UK for example.

Stringing out stories to paint Greece badly just shows how desperate the real culprits are to cover their role in this mess.

This mess is seen again and again the world over.

Banks and politicians lending and borrowing unsustainable sums, privatising the profit, then socialising the debt.

Rinse repeat ad infinitum while the plebes fall for the same distraction technique reports about how it's all the lazy xyz' fault.

[DRooster]

Am I the only human that doesn't blame the banks?

If I was a bank and one of the thousands of government-controlling politicians/civil servants came to my bank and asked for yet another huge loan to carry on their democratic systems ... I give them that loan : bacause rather than let any bank crumble into bancrupcy those governments simply buy the bank out with more borrowed money and carry on taxing the people.

It ain't the banks' fault.

It is the last fifty years of politiciant running democratic governments.

The first political party to stop over-borrowing will be voted out immediately.

In a modern democracy there is ONLY the borrow borrow path to destruction.

[FriedrichVonHayek]

Banks are the cause as they create money from nothing and then charge you interest on it.

Its a nice little scam.

[KDave]

Am I the only human that doesn't blame the banks?

If I was a bank and one of the thousands of government-controlling politicians/civil servants came to my bank and asked for yet another huge loan to carry on their democratic systems ... I give them that loan : bacause rather than let any bank crumble into bancrupcy those governments simply buy the bank out with more borrowed money and carry on taxing the people.

It ain't the banks' fault.

It is the last fifty years of politiciant running democratic governments.

The first political party to stop over-borrowing will be voted out immediately.

In a modern democracy there is ONLY the borrow borrow path to destruction.

No one forced the banks to lend. No one forced Greece to borrow (until now). Blame is a red herring here. It has no effect on the outcome which was fairly obvious way before Syriza got into power. 

 

Greece cannot afford to repay its debt. Because of this, logically the only path for Greece is default (partially or fully). When this happens the banks will take the hit (possibly catastrophically) and Greece will never be able to access cheap credit ever again.  

 

Perhaps then debt will be regarded properly and not be treated like a one way bet for the banks to make easy money and by politicians buying votes with no care for the long term. 

[AuFinger]

Interest was really designed to cover the chance of default, not to 'make' money from. That is where the concept has become somewhat broken.

 

Making up a future that hasn't arrived yet, speculating on the interest you can make in that future which is yet to occur, is just doomed to failure every so often. More so when you borrow even more money from the future, with more interest on top, in the hope that it'll kick start growth today because growth has slowed and is making the interest burden too great.

Really it's completely cretinous, but I suppose greed makes people blind, and then they act like cretins.

 

 

As long as it's the bankers and politicians that end up going to the gulags I'll be happy enough.

[Hookythestacker]

Just had a chat with a friend back from Greece, they visited a couple of island's, tourist areas, and said life is going as usual. Still able to withdraw hundreds of euros a time from cash dispensers, no

sense of panic or impending doom among the locals, no shortages. A few people asking for cash payment where possible but other than that, crisis?, what crisis?

[Pete]

Just had a chat with a friend back from Greece, they visited a couple of island's, tourist areas, and said life is going as usual. Still able to withdraw hundreds of euros a time from cash dispensers, no

sense of panic or impending doom among the locals, no shortages. A few people asking for cash payment where possible but other than that, crisis?, what crisis?

 

Cash payments and no VAT receipts - that's part of the problem in Greece - not paying taxes whilst getting Euro bailout cash to compensate, knowing that it will never be repaid.

[Hookythestacker]

Cash payments and no VAT receipts - that's part of the problem in Greece - not paying taxes whilst getting Euro bailout cash to compensate, knowing that it will never be repaid.

Cash is king from my friends account Pete, probably more than ever under the current circumstances so keeping accurate books is probably even less likely than before. 

[AuFinger]

There's nothing wrong with cash payments, it's the people not declaring it that is the issue.

And/or the government tax collectors being slack and not having systems in place to find those under declaring or no proper book keeping.

The last thing we need is for cash to be demonised when it's the last monetary freedom we have.

Once cash is gone you're screwed until the government collapses and no other government takes over (think Germany/EU) in this case.

[Hookythestacker]

That's a very good point Au, as of yet I' m not aware of Greece being touted as an example to justify the drive to a cashless

EU, I think the carbon allowance is still pie in the sky, but you are right that we should always be mindful of any hint of a shift

In that direction, and as you say the demonisation of cash. A world without coins, doesn't bare thinking about does it.

[Fluttershy]

no need for a war on cash though, can`t they just print the new q.e euros on greece proof paper?

[DRooster]

 A world without coins, doesn't bare thinking about does it.

I always cringe when a certain friend pulls out her card for a coffee or an icecream or (last time) a four-quid wok.

I carry cash for small purchases and use my card (+cashback) on anything around thirty quid.

Anyway, cash is nice ... in this country the coins are still decent stuff, size, weight and design-wise.

[Danny-boy]

I always cringe when a certain friend pulls out her card for a coffee or an icecream or (last time) a four-quid wok.

I carry cash for small purchases and use my card (+cashback) on anything around thirty quid.

Anyway, cash is nice ... in this country the coins are still decent stuff, size, weight and design-wise.

I use my phone to pay for most things now using Apple pay, it's almost quicker than cash

[HawkHybrid]

I use my phone to pay for most things now using Apple pay, it's almost quicker than cash

 

using cash makes it easier to collect copper coins 

cash is king 

 

HH

[DRooster]

 We keep our bronze coins in a Jack Daniels fudge tin 

[Scuzzle]

If I never used cash I would never pick up the £2 coins to sell on Ebay, picked up another Commonwealth NI one the other day in my change, just sold my last one on Ebay for £35.   I hate people who pay for their morning paper with their card, just draw out a tenner and use it all week for your morning papers.  Must be hard to go through your receipts on your card to spot anything that should not be there if you use it for everything.  

[Hookythestacker]

Heh, and the wonderful variety of foreign coins in your change that I for one would probably not see otherwise, the pensioners bingo folded so that supply of duff currency has dried up. The newsagent has provided me with a few lately so I bet the bunch of old twisters are chancing their arms there now, as the Mrs still meets up with a few of them I'll just ask her to collect any foreign junk they have and give it straight to me thus cutting out the middleman.

[Agpanda]

Heh, and the wonderful variety of foreign coins in your change that I for one would probably not see otherwise, the pensioners bingo folded so that supply of duff currency has dried up. The newsagent has provided me with a few lately so I bet the bunch of old twisters are chancing their arms there now, as the Mrs still meets up with a few of them I'll just ask her to collect any foreign junk they have and give it straight to me thus cutting out the middleman.

Are you collecting coins from different country's?

If so, i have some if you want them.

[Hookythestacker]

Are you collecting coins from different country's?

If so, i have some if you want them.

That's a very nice offer Bosse68 but not one I can take you up on, as it happens I don't actually collect international currency, I was more lamenting the fact that I appear unable to stop collecting it in my loose change. Maybe another forum member would be interested though, very good of you all the same.

[KDave]

Looks like Greece has fallen into line with its new finance minister at the helm. Principles are a luxury the Greeks can no longer afford it seems. 

 

Unless something changes Greece will be in receipt of its third bailout since 2010. This will allow them to make the repayment to the European Central Bank due on the 20th August. 

 

Source:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/04/us-eurozone-greece-bailout-idUSKCN0Q90YU20150804

 

All this good news sadly isn't helping the Greek stock market. Banks in particular have fallen hard the last few days over their need to recapitalise. 

[Oldun]