Heads up

[Stu]

I don't usually share my purchases but I have no choice here as I wanted to share some information with you all. The 1990 4 coin Sovereign set that HGM sold earlier this week, yep that was me.

I was fair excited opening the silver package that arrived yesterday, only to find dirty big finger prints all over all four coins. I telephoned HGM today to explain the situation. They were resolute that the coins they sell are purely bullion and that they have have to handle the coins when they are testing them. I highlighted that I had purchased proof coins from them previously without fingerprints on them and that they charge extra for coin set proof v other bullion. After discussing the issue with her manager the staff member phoned me back and advised that as I am good customer with them that I can return the goods within 3 days and they will give me a refund and that they cannot offer this again in the future. I did suggest to her that if they wore gloves during the testing process the would keep the coins in good condition, however I was advised that due to high turnover and their business model this was not practical.

Like I say this is a heads up in case a 1990 set appears again next week or any other sets in the future. Emma did say if you phone them they will be honest with explaining the condition.

I would not normally have spent so much in the one go, however assuming they would be an A1 proof set I went for it. I now see that even Bairds are selling the same set for only £150 more than what I paid. I am wondering if I will now return within the 3 days, what are your thoughts?

[Kman]

advised that as I am good customer with them that I can return the goods within 3 days and they will give me a refund and that they cannot offer this again in the future.

 

That's rubbish

 

https://www.gov.uk/accepting-returns-and-giving-refunds

 

Online, mail and phone order sales

 

Online, mail and telephone order customers have the right to cancel for a limited time even if the goods aren’t faulty. Sales of this kind are known as ‘distance selling’.

 

You must offer a refund to customers if they return goods within 14 days of receiving them.

 

You must then refund the customer within 14 days of receiving the goods back. They don’t have to provide a reason.

[HighlandTiger]

Not wishing to point out the obvious but we all know HGM is a bullion company and that there is a reason why they are so cheap. If you want a pristine proof set of coins then HGM is not the place to go. But then you will expect to pay WAY MORE than 5% over spot for them. Its horses for courses and if you want to buy on the cheap you can't expect perfection. If I was in your shoes I'd try and carefully clean the finger prints off with a very soft cloth

[Paul]

My opinion which is likely to upset a few here.  Everything on their site is always listed as 'Bullion Grade'

 

Their term meaning

"Bullion grade - Each coin that we send out is manually checked to ensure there is no damage beyond normal wear and tear of the coin or bar. Each coin is dispatched in a transparent coin wallet and packed in protective packaging to ensure that your coin or bar arrives safely with you."

 

They have sent you what they had advertised and you have received that.  If handling / surface marks / condition concerns. ring them before buying

Wether or not they finger marks on they are still a proof sovereign.  They are handled proofs.  If you want ultra mint mint mint condition, get on the phone and ask your spending £1000+ 

 

They are what they are a mega turnover bullion dealer and refiner. Pile it high, sell it cheap

 

What is going to happen here over time is they will have no choice up to up the margins pricing to cover the returns/complaints/ negative spot variance between bought and returned / return postage costs

 

It also takes time out of their day answering phones and emails to complaints that should not have been even came about in the first place

 

If buying from HGM always EXPECT to received handled/worn/marked coins and then when they arrive and they are a much better than expected you have everything to be happy about

 

On flip side, x20 silver nuggets.  Bought them sight unseen, no phone call or email, when arrived they were x20 lunar S1 tigers. No moans that day

I bought a x1 gold britannia they had listed, bought sight unseen. When it arrived ti was a boxed proof. No moans that day 

[Clens92]

My opinion which is likely to upset a few here.  Everything on their site is always listed as 'Bullion Grade'

 

Their term meaning

"Bullion grade - Each coin that we send out is manually checked to ensure there is no damage beyond normal wear and tear of the coin or bar. Each coin is dispatched in a transparent coin wallet and packed in protective packaging to ensure that your coin or bar arrives safely with you."

 

They have sent you what they had advertised and you have received that.  If handling / surface marks / condition concerns. ring them before buying

Wether or not they finger marks on they are still a proof sovereign.  They are handled proofs.  If you want ultra mint mint mint condition, get on the phone and ask your spending £1000+ 

 

They are what they are a mega turnover bullion dealer and refiner. Pile it high, sell it cheap

 

What is going to happen here over time is they will have no choice up to up the margins pricing to cover the returns/complaints/ negative spot variance between bought and returned / return postage costs

 

It also takes time out of their day answering phones and emails to complaints that should not have been even came about in the first place

 

If buying from HGM always EXPECT to received handled/worn/marked coins and then when they arrive and they are a much better than expected you have everything to be happy about

 

On flip side, x20 silver nuggets.  Bought them sight unseen, no phone call or email, when arrived they were x20 lunar S1 tigers. No moans that day

I bought a x1 gold britannia they had listed, bought sight unseen. When it arrived ti was a boxed proof. No moans that day 

 

Can't agree more with this.  It's a bullion company - if you want numismatics go to a specialist firm.  Frankly, I'd have told the buyer to shove his complaint - he bought them as bullion, and paid a price that reflected this.

[Kman]

You guys can say it's bullion all you want

 

I just bought a 1/4 and 1/2 proof sov from HGM just now, if they're damaged I've paid a bullion price so fair enough. 

 

But when they charge an extra premium, be it 15% for a shield sov or an extra 1% to 5% from the normal sov price, they're selling it as something better than bullion even if they list is as bullion. 

[morezone]

When buying anything from HGM I don't expect them to be mint.  If I want mint, then I'll go to a more specialised dealer.

I bought a sov set sometime last year.  Had some stains of some sort on the coins.  A bit of warn soapy water did the trick.  They weren't mint so cleaning didn't make much difference to me and the extra 1% was still worth it over bullion sovs.

[Paul]

That's rubbish

 

https://www.gov.uk/accepting-returns-and-giving-refunds

 

It is not a requirement for investment gold/silver

 

Exceptions to the right to cancel

13. (1) Unless the parties have agreed otherwise, the consumer will not have the right to cancel the contract by giving notice of cancellation pursuant to regulation 10 in respect of contracts

( b ) for the supply of goods or services the price of which is dependent on fluctuations in the financial market which cannot be controlled by the supplier;

Financial Services

The website defines a financial service as any banking, credit, insurance, personal pension, investment or payment service.

[Kman]

It is not a requirement for investment gold/silver

 

Exceptions to the right to cancel

13. (1) Unless the parties have agreed otherwise, the consumer will not have the right to cancel the contract by giving notice of cancellation pursuant to regulation 10 in respect of contracts

( b ) for the supply of goods or services the price of which is dependent on fluctuations in the financial market which cannot be controlled by the supplier;

Financial Services

The website defines a financial service as any banking, credit, insurance, personal pension, investment or payment service.

 

Interesting, looks like you're right, I stand corrected

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/310044/bis-13-1368-consumer-contracts-information-cancellation-and-additional-payments-regulations-guidance.pdf

 

What types of contracts are exempt from cancellation rights?

6. As well as contracts wholly exempted from the regulations, a number of

online and off-premises contracts do not attract cancellation rights. These

include:

o ‘investment’ type products such as vintage wines, subject to

speculative purchase and where the price in the financial market may

vary (utilities such as supply of gas are not covered by this exception).

 

 

I wonder where this stops and starts with precious metals and how liberal you can be with descriptions and pictures 

[Paul]

Although this is written into law

 

I think as most bullion dealers we use here on the forum (the usual suspects) are always happy to bend the rules to make an exception in the vein of keeping the customer happy even when they not strictly obliged to do so 

 

Learning to complain in a nice way can often pay off & get your own way  

[ChrisSilver]

Not wishing to point out the obvious but we all know HGM is a bullion company and that there is a reason why they are so cheap. If you want a pristine proof set of coins then HGM is not the place to go. But then you will expect to pay WAY MORE than 5% over spot for them. Its horses for courses and if you want to buy on the cheap you can't expect perfection. If I was in your shoes I'd try and carefully clean the finger prints off with a very soft cloth

I disagree. There is absolutely no reason why a bullion dealer would need to touch the reverse or obverse of the coin and leave fingerprints on it. even if they didn't want to wear gloves they could have easily picked it up by the edge. There is no excuses for handling a coin like described, probably some idiot they had employed that doesn't know how to pick up a coin.

I would return it stu, get your money back. And then next time call them to confirm condition before placing an order, just so it doesn't happen again. HGM have some really good deals, if you can get coins in good condition or if you want just pure bullion.

[Clens92]

I disagree. There is absolutely no reason why a bullion dealer would need to touch the reverse or obverse of the coin and leave fingerprints on it. even if they didn't want to wear gloves they could have easily picked it up by the edge. There is no excuses for handling a coin like described, probably some idiot they had employed that doesn't know how to pick up a coin.

I would return it stu, get your money back. And then next time call them to confirm condition before placing an order, just so it doesn't happen again. HGM have some really good deals, if you can get coins in good condition or if you want just pure bullion.

 

For the exact reason that you've given in the first line of your post.  Bullion dealers.  Not numismatists.  They are selling on gold weight - it shouldn't matter if someone has coloured the coin with permanent marker so long as the gold weight and purity is as stated.  I understand that everyone hopes for the best in their purchases and that's understandable, but they legally have no right to a refund and moan purely because they didn't get what they expected (which is an accepted risk when buying without pictures).

 

They don't need an excuse to handle the coin as they have because they're not selling it for collector-value.  (I have more sympathy for those coins which are marked up 15%, though).

[morezone]

There is also a very high chance that the finger prints were left by the original owner.

Talking about bullion dealers and touching. I bought a single 2015 maple and a single red hawk from STG with a recent order. They both came in separate grip seal bags with nice juicy finger prints on both coins. Not really acceptable for a brand new coin.

[Paul]

Moral of the story here today for none fingered & fondled metal is always buy brand new Perth mint produce - pre-capsuled and never get the demon finger grease ever

[ChrisSilver]

For the exact reason that you've given in the first line of your post. Bullion dealers. Not numismatists. They are selling on gold weight - it shouldn't matter if someone has coloured the coin with permanent marker so long as the gold weight and purity is as stated. I understand that everyone hopes for the best in their purchases and that's understandable, but they legally have no right to a refund and moan purely because they didn't get what they expected (which is an accepted risk when buying without pictures).

They don't need an excuse to handle the coin as they have because they're not selling it for collector-value. (I have more sympathy for those coins which are marked up 15%, though).

If it doesn't matter then why would they list each item individually? Because it matters to some people, and they know that people collect different coins, hence why they list each type of coin separately so that they can increase reduce their turnaround time. If it didn't matter they would just list everything like: 1oz gold coin. Without describing what it actually was, would be easier for them. And then no one could complain as they would truly be selling for bullion value only.

Also, the OP said that he paid an additional premium for this set. He wasn't expecting that this would be sold in this condition. An increased premium implied it has some increased value I.e. collectors value. With finger prints it can easily be argued that it has no collectors value and I am pretty sure he would be successful in a claim if it came to that. But it didn't, HGM were kind enough to offer the OP a refund.

[Yeti]

So Stu are you returning them or keeping them? I moaned on another thread earlier in the week as I just missed these but you've probably done me a favour by the looks of it! Still, £150 saved over bairds with finger prints, I'm not sure wether I would have paid the extra or would have been happy to save the money and attempt to clean the prints myself...

[Clens92]

If it doesn't matter then why would they list each item individually? Because it matters to some people, and they know that people collect different coins, hence why they list each type of coin separately so that they can increase reduce their turnaround time. If it didn't matter they would just list everything like: 1oz gold coin. Without describing what it actually was, would be easier for them. And then no one could complain as they would truly be selling for bullion value only.

Also, the OP said that he paid an additional premium for this set. He wasn't expecting that this would be sold in this condition. An increased premium implied it has some increased value I.e. collectors value. With finger prints it can easily be argued that it has no collectors value and I am pretty sure he would be successful in a claim if it came to that. But it didn't, HGM were kind enough to offer the OP a refund.

 

That isn't what I said.  They list the different coins to appeal to as wide a market as possible; they aren't selling them for the collector-value otherwise they'd picture each lot and tell us which year etc. 

 

Premiums are the prerogative of the business; no claim would stand up to scrutiny if it was saying "They charged me a premium so it must be collectable".  By that logic, all the silver they sell (at 23% premium + VAT), should be brand new and come with bells and whistles.

 

If he wants perfect gold, he should buy it new.

[ChrisSilver]

That isn't what I said.  They list the different coins to appeal to as wide a market as possible; they aren't selling them for the collector-value otherwise they'd picture each lot and tell us which year etc. 

 

Premiums are the prerogative of the business; no claim would stand up to scrutiny if it was saying "They charged me a premium so it must be collectable".  By that logic, all the silver they sell (at 23% premium + VAT), should be brand new and come with bells and whistles.

 

If he wants perfect gold, he should buy it new.

You misunderstood what I meant when I said premium. I meant that the OP paid a premium for this proof set compared to the other gold bullion HGM sells. i.e. standard premium on gold is 3% but he paid a higher % premium for this particular set. However, from re reading this thread I think I may have incorrectly assumed that he did.

[Stu]

At Yeti, undecided if I am going to return as yet.

I did pay a very marginal extra premium for this set. For this reason I incorrectly assumed they would be in good condition. If they are going to treat proof like any other bullion I don't understand why the extra premium. That said, lesson learnt and I will go elsewhere if I want a perfect coin. There is no doubt I will still be using HGM in the future.

[Paul]

lesson learnt and I will go elsewhere if I want a perfect coin. There is no doubt I will still be using HGM in the future.

 

Well said Stu   win / win situation

[sovereignsteve]

Not wishing to point out the obvious but we all know HGM is a bullion company and that there is a reason why they are so cheap. If you want a pristine proof set of coins then HGM is not the place to go. But then you will expect to pay WAY MORE than 5% over spot for them. Its horses for courses and if you want to buy on the cheap you can't expect perfection. If I was in your shoes I'd try and carefully clean the finger prints off with a very soft cloth

Very difficult to clean proof gold coins. I've tried and never been entirely happy with the results.

[sovereignsteve]

I find it very difficult to listen to criticism of HGM, IMO they are great and personally they have made me a lot of money in the last few years.

You pays your money and takes your chance; if you get bullion, it's what you paid for. If you get something special and valuable, you've had a good day.

The premium they charge is irrelevant, they can charge different premiums for different coins as much as they want. Nowhere do they suggest that any of their coins are in anything other than what it says against each coin's description - BULLION GRADE ie sold purely and simply on the basis of their metal content.

If they charged a premium of 50% you still couldn't argue and complain if the coins weren't as good as you expected.

if you're not prepared to accept these conditions, don't buy from them.

[Kman]

I find it very difficult to listen to criticism of HGM

 

HGM are the best, but If you add extra premium, expect extra scrutiny.

[shemyaza]

I've never bought from HGM, but they seem like they followed the spirit of the rules so the fingerprint situation might just have been one of those things which rarely happens, human error,  if very busy a rushed situation.

I'll refer instead as an edit to the EC Consumer Rights Directive as reference. SovereignSteve answered an edited section of this reply which I believe in hindsight to Steve's answer below be reduced as it is irrelevant. To SovereignSteve, well said and HGM have alot of support and as a forum we need to know who looks after us and who doesn't.

[sovereignsteve]

Again, irrelevant.

We shouldn't be concerned with what the law says.

At the end of the day, we have a resource in HGM that everyone agrees is the best.

They go out of their way to be helpful to us, their customers. They don't need to do this. Currently they have little difficulty selling all their stock quickly and if they just put all their stock on the website, whatever premium, no guarantees, take it or leave it, they'd still sell it all.

If we start to become a hassle to them, piss them off etc by being fussy and wanting to return everything. They're just going to retreat to being a no frills bullion merchant and we'll be the losers. They only have a limited number of staff and don't charge the prices that a retail outlet would in order to have numerous sales and support staff.