How to spot a fake sovereign.

[jazzman]

After reading about Kmans recent experience with a gold sovereign he bought,he mentioned that he was going to try and learn more about spotting a fake sovereign. I too am a big fan of buying sovereigns but am in no way any kind of expert when it comes to spotting a fake. So i thought we could have a thread where people could post advice on spotting fakes and also maybe photos of fakes, that kind of thing.

[ArthGoch]

http://www.goldsovereigns.co.uk/fakes.html  The Youtube lesson is worth a look.

 

Just to reaffirm the point that is made at around about the 6 minute 15 seconds mark and for those who may travel to the middle east for a holiday or on business. Stay well clear of any sovereigns that are offered, or you see.

 

Even Dubai Duty Free ( or at least in the past) did sell 'costume sovereigns' and which is big business in respect of gold dowries for the sub continent market and presented in the form of jewellery for the bride. The ones I have seen are usually the old Victoria head, and appear as bright as a button but with a very poor strike. Others I have seen have the old head on one side and Edward on the other, while other have an observe with sanskrit/arabic verses 

 

As the Youtube video alludes to, this is in most cases not done in malice or with deception, but is simply a tradition that harks back to the Raj. These are made of gold, but the karat and weight do vary.

 

If the quality and colour were not a red flag to anyone considering buying one, when you realised that in the gold souks they are sold by the grm, this should be enough to raise anyones suspicions.

[jazzman]

Thank you for that arthgoch, that is a good start to the thread.I am going to get my sovereigns out and weigh and measure them and post the results so people can compare theirs to them, i have some new 2014 and some older especially my half sovereigns are of the turn of the century type.

[Pete]

A fake sovereign will be underweight and too thick.

It will contain gold or be thick plated gold or if a jeweller's copy rather than 22ct more likely to be 18ct.

A fake will be difficult to spot so you must weigh accurately.

Anything underweight should be checked for diameter ( fake will more than likely be correct ).

Then check thickness at the centre of the coin - not the rim.

This is not a precise measurement due to the cameo of the coin but compared to an original, expect a fake to be about 10% thicker.

You need a micrometer to make this measurement.

I have received 2 fake sovereigns in my stacking years.

One from eBay and the seller refunded.

The second from a very well known bullion dealer, frequently referred on this forum, and it was immediately replaced.

[jazzman]

Hi Pete , please could you elaborate on how you found out the two sovereigns you got were fakes, was it immedietly obvious that sort of thing.

[Pete]

Hi Pete , please could you elaborate on how you found out the two sovereigns you got were fakes, was it immedietly obvious that sort of thing.

My eBay sovereign had a different colour to others - that was suspicious - it was too shiny for example.

Every gold coin I buy gets precisely weighed.

A sovereign should weigh 7.98 - 8.02g and a worn coin might weigh 7.94g or slightly less.

A weight higher or lower needs investigation.

My eBay sovereign was about 7.6g, not worn therefore a fake.

My second fake was from a dealer and the weight was outside the above range ( less than 7.8g I think ).

A sovereign's average thickness is 1.52mm ( not rim thickness which can be much higher ).

Having noticed a slightly underweight coin I measured the thickness at about 1.8mm which was 20% higher so clearly a fake.

My calculations at the time showed the carat content at around 18ct and the seller did an Xray fluorescence measurement to confirm.

In order to make up weight the coin has to be substantially thicker as fakers usually get the diameter correct.

Fortunately I have a precision micrometer that can make centre thickness measurements.

[Kman]

Thanks for your posts Pete, very interesting. 

[Dune69]

If the prices on these drop they would be a great addition to the fight against fakes

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1HADFwTyv4&feature=share

[HawkHybrid]

sg test it as gold is resilient so won't be affected by water at all.

it's a cheaper way of testing the volume without the need to

buy calipers.

 

if they use gold plated tungsten then it's truly difficult short of

cutting it in half.

 

I know I'm somewhat biased towards the sg test but it is useful

to help test what's underneath the surface.

 

HH

[jazzman]

Hi Hawkhybrid, please could you explain the specific gravity test that you are talking about for those of us who do not know how to do it or the results you would expect.

[Pete]

sg test it as gold is resilient so won't be affected by water at all.

it's a cheaper way of testing the volume without the need to

buy calipers.

 

if they use gold plated tungsten then it's truly difficult short of

cutting it in half.

 

I know I'm somewhat biased towards the sg test but it is useful

to help test what's underneath the surface.

 

HH

No-one will ever make a sovereign out of tungsten as it is way to hard to press or machine inexpensively.

A bar however is another matter and worth faking with tungsten.

A specific gravity check would be necessary on any bar that is not bought from a reliable source.

[jazzman]

Here is a link for everyone to read. After doing a bit of reading on the internet it would appear that establishing if a sovereign is 22k gold is reasonably easy with dimensions and weight calculations. The hard ones are the numismatic coins which is what Kmans was. So i am going to keep posting links as i find them.

http://www.drakesterling.com/coins-for-sale/news-wire/news-wire/counterfeit-gold-sovereigns

[jazzman]

Here is another good one from chards.

http://www.goldsovereigns.co.uk/1958fakesovereign.html

[jazzman]

And another.

http://www.goldsovereigns.co.uk/1958fakesovereign.html

[HelpingHands]

Kman did Aty's ever get back to you on the sov?

I suppose it might not be in their interest to confirm a fake.

[Kman]

Kman did Aty's ever get back to you on the sov?

I suppose it might not be in their interest to confirm a fake.

 

Kind of, Paul said the gold was genuine but he would get back to me next week regarding its authenticity as he was going to have a few knowledgeable colleagues take a look first.  

[HighlandTiger]

Kind of, Paul said the gold was genuine but he would get back to me next week regarding its authenticity as he was going to have a few knowledgeable colleagues take a look first.  

 

Well we know the famous (or is it infamous) Lebanese guy was making those coins with similar dates confirmed, and he was using real gold. So it all fits  

[HawkHybrid]

the specific gravity test is when you submerge a coin in (usually) water, and

then measure the weight of the equivalent volume of water displaced by

the coin. by weighing the coin as it is and dividing one by the other you

get a specific gravity versus water. this can then be compared to a table

to give an idea of the average density of the materials used throughout the

coin.

it takes into account all the odd designs on coins and can be used for other

odd shaped things like jewellery.

 

I've not tried it on gold sovereigns(don't own any) but I think I still managed

it with a 5g silver coin(it gets more difficult with smaller coins/weights as the

error percentage rises). from memory the weight of water displaced from a

5g coin should be 5g/10.4x or about 0.48g.

 

here's a table again for figure comparing 

http://www.csgnetwork.com/specificgravmettable.html

 

apart from that which is radioactive and/or not practical the only realistic

fake substitutes are tungsten and lead. tungsten should be difficult to work

into small coins with designs and lead has an sg of 11.3 which is significantly

less dense than gold at 19.3. 22ct gold will be less than 19.3 but I'm guessing it

should be more than 17 so should still work.

 

HH

[Vulture]

In my opinion these are fakes. Currently on ebay. Any comments ?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/22ct-Half-Gold-Sovereign-dated-2005-Uncirculated-condition-high-mint-state-/161462282898

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/22ct-Half-Gold-Sovereign-dated-2003-Uncirculated-condition-high-mint-state-/161462282906

[HighlandTiger]

In my opinion these are fakes. Currently on ebay. Any comments ?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/22ct-Half-Gold-Sovereign-dated-2005-Uncirculated-condition-high-mint-state-/161462282898

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/22ct-Half-Gold-Sovereign-dated-2003-Uncirculated-condition-high-mint-state-/161462282906

 

They look fine to me. What makes you think they are fakes?

[Vulture]

Detail around the edge looks different. Compare them with these here.

http://www.goldsovereigns.co.uk/2002sovereigns.php

http://www.goldsovereigns.co.uk/2005sovereigns.php

[HighlandTiger]

Detail around the edge looks different. Compare them with these here.

http://www.goldsovereigns.co.uk/2002sovereigns.php

http://www.goldsovereigns.co.uk/2005sovereigns.php

 

I wouldn't use the pics on Chards sovereign website to make a comparison. They are drawings not pictures of the coins themselves. try looking at real pics at the Atkinsons website

 

http://atkinsonsbullion.com/special-offers/2002-half-gold-sovereigns

[Shamatti]

In my opinion these are fakes. Currently on ebay. Any comments ?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/22ct-Half-Gold-Sovereign-dated-2005-Uncirculated-condition-high-mint-state-/161462282898

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/22ct-Half-Gold-Sovereign-dated-2003-Uncirculated-condition-high-mint-state-/161462282906

 

The 2003 coin listing has a photo of a 2002 coin. So he is obviously cutting and pasting his descriptions and titles and posting multiple items quickly.

The surface of the coin is mottled, 'orange peely' I describe it as. This always rings alarm bells for me. And i am not keen on the lack of detail on the lions faces. Hard to tell just from pictures, but I can see why you are suspicious.

 

The 2005 coin has the same problematic finish. And what's up with that strange line from her eye into her hair? I don't like that coin. I am not saying it is wrong, but I have not seen sch a blemish on a sov before, and that in itself is enough for me to give it a wide birth! Same seller I note.

 

Checked out his other items. Has a lot of sovs that look legit to me. But also: Check out the difference in photography, and coin colour, between the 1880 sov, which I think if a good coin, and the other two.

 

[Shamatti]

try looking at real pics at the Atkinsons website

 

http://atkinsonsbullion.com/special-offers/2002-half-gold-sovereigns

 

Having looked at those I am even more convinced that the two on ebay are suspicious. Check out the difference in finish on the background, and the difference between the lions faces on the shield.

 

EDIT: Also check out the denticled surround, not the same. And the reeded edge looks too big too. I would leave well alone!

[Vulture]

Actually, for me the Atkinsons one that you link highlights this further.

If you have two separate tabs, one with the Queens head 2002 from Atkinsons and one with the Ebay 2002 enlarged photo Queens head you should be able to see the slight difference arround the edge detail.