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Milk Spots


Lowlow

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Not an issue I am affected by, ... really don't care ... but I do find it curious that mints can't figure out why this happens and correct for it.

What gives ?

Why can't they solve this issue ?

It seems really stupid to me that this could still happen, that they weren't able to figure it out and solve it .. like .. immediately upon seeing it happen the very first time, much less over years and years.

In 2018, why is this still a thing ?

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I was shocked recently to hear that the Royal Mint provide blanks to other mints around the world given their poor record. We can assume that Perth Mint do not use them for their premium coins e.g. as I have only ever seen one milked Kook on here.

The thing that confuses me with the RM is e.g. the 'special' Brits (anniversaries, Orientals) seem to do so much better than pure bullion. If they can get these (mostly?) right, why not just take a similar level of extra care (whatever that consists of) with all the rest? :wacko:

 

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53 minutes ago, kimchi said:

as I have only ever seen one milked Kook on here.

I have over 300 kooks and none with milk spots.

I have 100 Royal Mint Year of the Monkey 1oz bullion coins and I reckon 8% have milk spots..

The worst Mint from my experience is the Canadian- I bought 25  Maple Leafs and 5 had milk spots so stopped buying them.

I also have Pandas, and Eagles and none of those have milk spots.

The Royal Mint should have sorted this out, after all, they have had 1100 years to practice !

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1 hour ago, kimchi said:

I was shocked recently to hear that the Royal Mint provide blanks to other mints around the world given their poor record.

Really?  That would seem odd, as making the planchets would seem a simple cheap part of the process.  Shipping coins, risking damage seems odd. 

The thing that i dont understand about milking is the apparently vast variation of indicence between mints.  Perth seems rare, Royal Canadian Mint, Bavarian Mint (elephants) common with variation in between.  You'd think the technicians would look at difference in process, techniques and materials to zero in on the cause and eliminate.

Has anyone attempted to record frequency between mints?

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12 minutes ago, Kookaburracollector said:

I have over 300 kooks and none with milk spots.

I have 100 Royal Mint Year of the Monkey 1oz bullion coins and I reckon 8% have milk spots..

The worst Mint from my experience is the Canadian- I bought 25  Maple Leafs and 5 had milk spots so stopped buying them.

I also have Pandas, and Eagles and none of those have milk spots.

The Royal Mint should have sorted this out, after all, they have had 1100 years to practice !

Yes a lot of practice for the RM but it is mostly their silver modern coins (and blanks) that spot!

I think I can beat you on % - I had 100 Brits that all spotted within weeks (and were scratched to billy-o in their tubes anyway when they arrived - 'thanks' Bullionbypost for your 'Class A' coins - quite apart from VAT on silver that is the last thing I will buy from them due to their 'get stuffed' attitude when I politely phoned) :(

I trust Kooks too - couldn't believe it when I saw a 10oz spotted on here! Pandas as well - so many others. The ones that upset me are the Elephants because I love those coins, and they carry a decent premium a few years later if they survive.

I've mentioned it a few times but the most WTF I ever had was a tube of 2018 Perth Mint Roos which arrived late 2017. The whole lot were toned on delivery. How on Earth that does that work - they must have used toned blanks?!! :wacko:

 

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2 minutes ago, Martlet said:

Really?  That would seem odd, as making the planchets would seem a simple cheap part of the process.  Shipping coins, risking damage seems odd. 

The thing that i dont understand about milking is the apparently vast variation of indicence between mints.  Perth seems rare, Royal Canadian Mint, Bavarian Mint (elephants) common with variation in between.  You'd think the technicians would look at difference in process, techniques and materials to zero in on the cause and eliminate.

Has anyone attempted to record frequency between mints?

So they said in one promotional video I watched - I couldn't believe it either. Although I've had coins now from certain small Commonwealth countries that I've disappointedly shaken my head and thought 'quite probably blanks from Royal Mint'. There is no way so many mints can be getting exactly the same things wrong, surely? Mind you, I say that, but the RM probably share their 'technological knowhow' with Crown-dependent territories.

It's a little bit similar to their 1/4 coins. Look at the NGC census for the 2018 proof Sovs - less than 2% last time I looked were at less than a PF70. Compare that to the Queen's Beasts. I know the Proof Sov is the flagship coin, but the difference is crazy.

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3 hours ago, kimchi said:

I was shocked recently to hear that the Royal Mint provide blanks to other mints around the world given their poor record. We can assume that Perth Mint do not use them for their premium coins e.g. as I have only ever seen one milked Kook on here.

The thing that confuses me with the RM is e.g. the 'special' Brits (anniversaries, Orientals) seem to do so much better than pure bullion. If they can get these (mostly?) right, why not just take a similar level of extra care (whatever that consists of) with all the rest? :wacko:

 

At what stage does the milk spotting start ?
Maybe the blanks are not the problem.
If the presses that stamp the coin are improperly cleaned or residue borax or some other agent is left behind in trace amounts then it can be baked onto the surface as I gather they get quite hot under the pressure of the dies. I reckon the problem is down to contamination of either a cleaning bath, rinsing, cleaning or maybe cooling of the dies using a solution that should have been replaced earlier with a build up of an agent that creates a nitride of silver.

I have many hundreds of RCM coins such as Maples, Animals, Birds etc and they all seem pretty good.
I have seen very poor quality stained coins from the RCM that seem to be sold as seconds ( but many of our well known dealers still charge full price ).

As for scuffs, dings and scratches - our RM can produce blemish free stunning coins like the Oriental Border Britannia but they also ship out some real *sh1t* and I have a fair amount of it. This suggests to me they have multiple pressing stations with different handling and hoppers post stamping. I can imagine a press that ejects a coin onto a soft belt before being hand picked or maybe picked using a robot / vacuum and placed into a tray. Then there is the plant stamping out at high speed coins that get thrown into a giant hopper like they were minting £1 or 50p coins. Every coin collides with its neighbour then they are poured into bins, introducing more scratches for inserting into tubes or other packaging.

 

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45 minutes ago, Pete said:

At what stage does the milk spotting start ?
Maybe the blanks are not the problem.
If the presses that stamp the coin are improperly cleaned or residue borax or some other agent is left behind in trace amounts then it can be baked onto the surface as I gather they get quite hot under the pressure of the dies. I reckon the problem is down to contamination of either a cleaning bath, rinsing, cleaning or maybe cooling of the dies using a solution that should have been replaced earlier with a build up of an agent that creates a nitride of silver.

And that's the point of why I started the thread, how is it that nobody in the industry even has a conclusive answer for what the milk spots are, why they are happening, etc ?  I mean REALLY ?  Can you imagine GM or Toyoto selling cars where all the paint flakes off in 1986, then not figuring out why that is happening in 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, oh and then according to someone above maybe the Canadian mint has something that might stop the spots for 2018 ?  I mean WHAT in the TOTAL &^%$ ?  Why can't they figure this out and fix it ?  Surely the milk spots must have some kind of chemical composition, surely they can be scratched off, sent to a laboratory, and ... what are those people called .. SCIENTISTS ... could figure out WTF it was made of, right ?  And someone could figure out why it was happening and then make it stop happening ?  Am I crazy here ?  It seems like I'm not being crazy, to me, but like they say, crazy people don't know they're crazy.  It seems like all the mints are gaslighting us or something LOL.

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Many moons ago I used to work in a pressings factory stamping out tractor panels. Every now and then the stamping die would leave a dull surface on a stamped part and had to be scrap as the spray painting stage would not adhere.

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41 minutes ago, LiX said:

Speaking of QB Lions.... here are my worst two...

I've been thinking of getting all silver beasts to date, one of each. How likely is this to occur? This is really off putting, I'd be extremely annoyed if this happened given the premiums on these coins.

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3 minutes ago, CosmikDebris said:

I've been thinking of getting all silver beasts to date, one of each. How likely is this to occur? This is really off putting, I'd be extremely annoyed if this happened given the premiums on these coins.

The silver proofs are starting to spot, too. But only small specks, not large patches. At least in my limited experience 

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8 minutes ago, CosmikDebris said:

I've been thinking of getting all silver beasts to date, one of each. How likely is this to occur? This is really off putting, I'd be extremely annoyed if this happened given the premiums on these coins.

From my experience with QB's, you would be lucky if you don't get milk sport over time. Better collect 1/4 oz gold series. Zero issues there.

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1 minute ago, LiX said:

Better collect 1/4 oz gold series. Zero issues there.

I have picked those up recently, last one, the dragon, arriving tomorrow. The griffin I received today has small scratch or hairline mark on it so there are some issues. See the Today I received thread. 

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Milk spotting/hazing/clouding has gone through lots of theories and speculations over the years. Hard to pinpoint the true causes 100% because the mints themselves aren't giving much away when it comes to their processes. But there are plenty of snippets which can be put together.

Some mints are doing things which end up with milked coins. And some mints are doing those same things, but they introduce extra measures to reduce or even eliminate spotting/hazing. These extra measures can have haphazard results or completely successful results depending, i reckon, on how fastidiously they do it at any given time. So what is it they might be doing or not doing - i'll come back to that.

There are small independent mints which do not produce milk stained coins at all. It seems to be an issue with the big volume guys. Which could point to the endless cost saving techniques the paper shufflers in every large company come up with to justify their positions to the CEO. Where the margins become more important than the quality of the product. Whereas the smaller outfit needs the quality to speak volumes.

So what sort of thing are the mints doing and not doing. Mints have always been using washes and detergents during the processes, most likely taking the correct steps and time needed to remove all residues. Sure, sometimes coins would get through and go on to develop some spots but for the large part, not on epidemic levels. Along come ever improved machines which can mint coins faster. Has some of the time and attention given to cleaning the coins been sacrificed to keep up with output? Also, along has come special chemical lubricants which, when the planchet is pre-washed in it just before the strike, results in a crisper finish and zero chance of particles sticking to the surface.

Dies are expensive, too. These new lubricants also serve to extend the life of the dies. At least doubling (tripling if really pushing it to the limit) the number of coins a single die used to be capable of producing.

So these advances have been great for mints in increasing output and producing great crisp looking coins to begin with, anyway. Saving costs of materials and man hours. But they have not kept up the quality of the complete removal of these chemicals from the surfaces of the coins. They know how to solve it. Correct washing and rinsing. The thing is, that costs time and money too. Somewhere along the line it got reduced and reduced, depending on the final product. So basic bullion – basic wash. Proofs – a much higher degree of attention to cleaning. Yet, a laziness has crept into the proof process as well, with more and more instances of spotted proofs.

In answer to the milking problem, rather than have it known they prefer cost saving over quality, some of the mints have had contempt when the issue became a concern with buyers. Saying it is a mysterious development, they will look into it, but in the meantime it’s just bullion folks so what do you expect. Perfection? Pah.

And this is where you get the divergence between mints. Some address it and put in the correct steps to prevent, even if it is just bullion. Because some mints just do care more than others. I suspect that the RCM (still perpetuating the mythical unknowns of milking) have only come up with this new coating because of the slump in the bullion coin numbers. They would have us believe their “scientists” have developed this wondrous solution after years of toil. Oh really RCM? After years of telling buyers to like it or lump it when it came to milking? Also, it points to this coating being actually a cheaper method in the long run than actually cleaning the coins correctly. You’ll find they crunched the numbers on that one. Just to be clear too, this coating will substantially reduce milking, not eliminate it (from their own press release). So not a real attempt, just a PR stunt.

Other mints like Perth are doing the necessary needed to largely eliminate milking on their premium bullion ranges. They at least are taking pride in those ranges. But less so on the low premium stuff (anyone remember the milk state of the Funnel Web Spider bullion?). There is also a pattern in that the low premium stuff now gets a all-over frosted finish. Milk hazing will happen but it’ll be less obvious. Like the latest rectangular dragon.

So yeah, they all know the cause. And some deal with it better than others. All of this is just my own belief based on reading many obscure articles and talking with others over the years.

 

As to why all the mints seem to prefer to shroud the whole milking issue in mystery? Well, think about it. Who wants to be the first to say publicly ….. um yep, I guess we  could wash/rinse/repeat everything a good while longer.

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20 minutes ago, swAgger said:

There are small independent mints which do not produce milk stained coins at all. It seems to be an issue with the big volume guys. Which could point to the endless cost saving techniques the paper shufflers in every large company come up with to justify their positions to the CEO. Where the margins become more important than the quality of the product. Whereas the smaller outfit needs the quality to speak volumes.

Totally this.  I have plenty of bullion rounds from private mints and I don't remember a single round having milk spots.  That's why I said in my original post that it doesn't affect me, because I don't collect bullion coins from government sanctioned mints, and those seem to be the ones who are having these problems.  It makes me wonder if they're all using the same equipment and that the vendor of the equipment they have in common is suggesting processes that are affecting the coins, maybe it is only the large mints that can afford fancy new equipment who are affected because they are all using the same fancy new equipment.

In any case, I don't know why you guys as buyers even put up with it, as a group.  It seems like together, if there were a way to coordinate the effort, you all have the leverage to get what you want and have the issues resolved to your satisfaction.  You ARE their market, it isn't like there are people out there buying the coins for use in industry or something, they are made for collectors.  Even as a bullion buyer I don't care for the coins because I don't like paying that much of a premium over spot, and that goes 1000x for proof coins, etc, which I don't anticipate ever buying.  You ARE the market for these coins.

Edit, I know this must be really irritating for you guys .. I don't even buy the coins and it irritates me that its happening.  It seems unjust and careless, and it's really stupid that something like this would go on for so long on a product that is created to be nearly perfect.  We're not talking about stray threads on a pair of socks, these are PROOF COINS.

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9 hours ago, Lowlow said:

In any case, I don't know why you guys as buyers even put up with it, as a group.  It seems like together, if there were a way to coordinate the effort, you all have the leverage to get what you want and have the issues resolved to your satisfaction.  You ARE their market, it isn't like there are people out there buying the coins for use in industry or something, they are made for collectors.  Even as a bullion buyer I don't care for the coins because I don't like paying that much of a premium over spot, and that goes 1000x for proof coins, etc, which I don't anticipate ever buying.  You ARE the market for these coins.

 

We are the market for proofs yes, but the coins produced in mass volume? Most of them go to highend bullion buyers or to bullionshops who in return sell them as well, pieces of silver. The collectors community, even in the upper 000K numbers is small compared to the bullion buyers community. 

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