No J.C – error, variety or nothing to see

[augur]

Ok @HyHy, you asked for it

There are at least two PF70 1/4 oz gold proof dragons where the "J.C" on the reverse is rather a "J C".

The most likely explanation is that the mask to protect the fields during sandblasting was not cut out in this area and the dye was not etched here. As per general information from the Royal Mint, dyes are polished and etched again after 30 coins so that there could be very few coins of this kind. 

It would be interesting to get your views on this anomaly. 

Opposed to the regular one

[HyHy]

OMG@augur I don’t expect you to start a new thread for this [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] But anyway interested if anyone has the same error as well ! Thanks anyway!

[sovereignsteve]

Presumably there should be at least 30 coins the same

[augur]

9 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

Presumably there should be at least 30 coins the same

Unless QC spotted them or they were sent back but knowing "QC" at the Royal Mint I rather doubt that. 

[*tada*]

I just got hold of one (PF70 UC by NGC) but not sure if it’s coming from the same die- the JC on reverse is particularly weak (last image is a 10x zoom you can clearly see the JC there)

 

It looks to be slightly stronger strike than augur’s image but then direction of lighting also can strength or weaken the impression so I’m not sure

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[augur]

17 minutes ago, *tada* said:

I just got hold of one but not sure if it’s coming from the same die- the JC on reverse is particularly weak (last image is a 10x zoom you can clearly see the JC there)

That's then No.3 of the weak/no J.C

on the regular one you can see the dot between the initials

 

[*tada*]

That's then No.3 of the weak/no J.C

on the regular one you can see the dot between the initials

 

 

This is so much clearer as a comparison, thanks!

 

As the number of findings grow hopefully this is more likely to be attributed as a variety

[NewMSmatist15]

Very cool find!

[augur]

Numistacker was kindly in contact with NGC but the reply was that this is just considered as a "weak strike" ...

In the meantime I was able to track at least 11 coins with no J.C in the NGC census. 

[Quicksilver]

Im not sure exactly who brought this to light . I Just want to say thanks as I am lucky enough to own some. 

 

[*tada*]

Finally have some spare time and I am looking into this again this week - thanks @augur and @Numistacker who in the past put many efforts into this. I have collected 2 pairs of samples (NGC graded and raw ungraded) and they will be on their way to PCGS with a letter attached. However, the chance of making a new variety attribution is rather slim. Here's the abbreviated NGC definition and you can see why:

 

Quote

A variety is a coin that has characteristics specific to the die pair that struck it. Most collectible varieties can thus be traced to a set of dies.

....

In the case of modern coins, most features of the design were included in a master hub, from which a series of transfers were made to produce working dies. Very little hand punching was done, aside from the addition of the date and mintmark. Since early in the last century, the date has been an integral part of the master die for each year and has not varied within that year. The same has been true of mintmarks since 1990, and today's coin dies are typically indistinguishable. Though numerous doubled dies, overdates, repunched mintmarks and the like have occurred over the past century, these were the exceptions rather than the rule. Nevertheless, they do qualify as varieties and may be attributed as such under NGC's VarietyPlus service.

...

NGC does not attribute as varieties coins that display Strike Doubling, Abrasion Doubling, Die Deterioration Doubling, Master Die Doubling (doubling that is found on all coins made produced from that master die), insignificant die chips, breaks, cracks or any variety coin that falls under mint tolerances for doubling or normal die wear.

Still it's something interesting and maybe even cool considering there is zero "NO JC" premium I'd say if you have one now you should keep it and make a note

[augur]

3 minutes ago, *tada* said:

Finally have some spare time and I am looking into this again this week - thanks @augur and @Numistacker who in the past put many efforts into this. I have collected 2 pairs of samples (NGC graded and raw ungraded) and they will be on their way to PCGS with a letter attached. However, the chance of making a new variety attribution is rather slim. Here's the abbreviated NGC definition and you can see why:

 

NGC does not attribute as varieties coins that display Strike Doubling, Abrasion Doubling, Die Deterioration Doubling, Master Die Doubling (doubling that is found on all coins made produced from that master die), insignificant die chips, breaks, cracks or any variety coin that falls under mint tolerances for doubling or normal die wear.

 

Under these circumstances I would rather see a good chance as the variant is likely caused by an insufficient punched protective film for the die etching, so that the J.C wasn't sandblasted on one or several dies. 

This error is expressed on a fraction of the coins and has not been doubled across the range. It would be interesting to see PCGS's view on this. I am still waiting on a reply from the Royal Mint as to how this error occurred.

[*tada*]

OK it's been a while but I tried to present all different copies to PCGS as well.

They will not view it as variety or mint error.

@Numistacker  has presented the info to NGC and also answer is no.