Brexit.

[JamesK]

Hi, I'm not intrested in how you voted or how you think things are going.

im purely intrested in how Brexit will affect buying silver coins from Europe, particularly Germany.

as many of you will know, there is a great VAT difference between them and us.

this has passed relatively unnoticed by the Tax Man. 

I buy a lot of silver from Europe, and I am wondering, do you think this 'loophole' will get closed, will things stay the same

or if it's closed, what, if any, are the ways rounds it.

genuine question, and really intrested to hear you thoughts.

apologies if this question has be asked before, I ploughed through a lot of pages

and couldn't find the topic anywhere.

[Scuzzle]

There does not appear to be any word on how things will pan out, ever since Brexit was announced I've switched to stacking silver only just in case what you fear is what happens.  After Brexit I will go to gold if the silver VAT advantage is lost to me.

[PansPurse]

A lot of this probably rests on the fate of the customs union. Currently we avoid any taxes at the point of import.

With Brussels pushing for a soft Northern Ireland border, who knows, maybe that'll become the main workaround with folks shipping from continental Europe via Eire

[Martlet]

There isn't a formal difference on VAT between UK and other European nations, some dealers are exploiting a loophole to cut their VAT.   EU directs rules on VAT, so in theory post brexit we could see no VAT on bullion (including platinum/palladium?).  In practice it depends on the agreement.  To maintain favourable trading, so we may maintain VAT rules and see VAT rules for imports recognised, i.e. same as present.  On the other hand, there is a push to remove import duties so its likely similar exploits will be more acceptable here.  

[swAgger]

20 minutes ago, PansPurse said:

A lot of this probably rests on the fate of the customs union. Currently we avoid any taxes at the point of import.

With Brussels pushing for a soft Northern Ireland border, who knows, maybe that'll become the main workaround with folks shipping from continental Europe via Eire

That's not really the case. The EU is not pushing the soft border upon the UK government. Under a separate treaty, the UK already has this obligation in order to uphold the ideals of the Good Friday Agreement, which are officially recognised by both UK parliament and the constitution of the Republic. A return to a hard border endangers much of that important treaty.

The saddest twist of fate is this; twenty years ago the one and only main party in N.I. who stood opposed to that great progressive agreement were the DUP. They now hold the balance of power over Mrs May. To say this complicates matters is an understatement.

Anyway, to the OP's question. No, when the dust has settled i really don't see you being able to carry on as normal without your pocket being affected. However, as Pan says, if the workaround happens i don't mind offering my services for the group order

[Lowlow]

Congratulations to UK for Brexit.

 

As am American I was impressed.

[649tom]

2 hours ago, Lowlow said:

Congratulations to UK for Brexit.

 

As am American I was impressed.

Says it all.

[Silverclown]

Nothing will change.

uk has weak leadership, eu has weak leadership.

[KDave]

It depends as others have said on the outcome to the trade agreements and how 'in' or 'out' we actually are at the end of it 

In best case scenario the UK leaves with no trade agreement and no tariffs (unlikely), we will lose our access to silver at the discounted rate. I then expect UK buyers to pay 20% on silver for the foreseeable and don't think stacking physical will be viable except for an extremely long time horizon. We will still be able to access exposure to precious metals through vaulting, derivatives and potentially by that point through the crypto markets, but these all carry some degree of counter party risk. Bullion at 20% may still be attractive to eliminate this risk but it is a high price to pay for insurance, I think only hard core stackers will continue with silver in the volumes we see now, but there will always be a market. 

I actually believe we will not see the UK leave the EU in anything but name, we will still trade under the current agreement or something very similar, likely to our disadvantage thanks to politics and the ignorance of the public. For this reason I don't think we will lose access to low VAT silver, but anything could happen at this point.

I have heard reasonable arguments that gold will be subject to VAT in the UK post brexit (dependant on outcome), based on the case that the UK government will tax everything it can if it gets the chance, but I prefer Martlet's optimism. No VAT on precious metals would be quite liberating, which makes me think it unlikely. 

[dutchman]

i believe we will get a decent deal after all the posturing ends money talks the uk imports 16% of all european goods  we are the eu biggest market  german exports $94.1 billion france $34.4 billion making the uk their 3rd and 5th most important country for them to export to punitive barriers by the eu will hurt them just as much as us the silver market is a very small  part of the trading market for us and europe if the loopholes used by bullion dealers in germany and belgium with vat on silver was costing 100s of millions of lost vat revenue the eu/uk would have stopped it i dont see the uk/eu brexit teams sitting round the table and asking the question  "what about vat on silver coins "so i believe when it comes to buying silver not much will change and no vat on precious metals is not going to happen

[onlyroadtoheaven]

With silver being so cheap, sentiment for silver being so poor, and the uncertainty of the current loophole, I have been started buying silver aggressively (Grrrrr)  the past couple of months.

However I think Eva and the angry team at Goldsilver.be may end up swaying all the politicians into leaving things as they are. Get her in on all of the trade negotiations and we will be ok.

[dutchman]

your right as cpl jones from dads army use to say "they dont like it up them ! "

[vand]

All Governments are bureaucrats, non more so that the EU, so I have no idea why anyone expected anything else at this stage of proceedings.

I don't know if we'll be able to buy silver from Estonia at the same prices that we currently are able to, but I think there will always be loopholes that can be exploited. We should look at whatever agreements that are eventually put in place a new opportunities rather than worry about the loss of current ones.

[999magnum]

Eva sounds like she could be hot...maybe, maybe not...I don't know...

[sixgun]

10 minutes ago, 999magnum said:

Eva sounds like she could be hot...maybe, maybe not...I don't know...

 

[999magnum]

1 hour ago, sixgun said:

 

That's her!!!

[sixgun]

25 minutes ago, 999magnum said:

That's her!!!

That's you with some sort of mark of the beast. What other members get up to is quite shocking sometimes.

[999magnum]

59 minutes ago, sixgun said:

That's you with some sort of mark of the beast. What other members get up to is quite shocking sometimes.

Oh! I just saw that!! LOL

[ilovesilverireallydo]

On 04/03/2018 at 09:51, KDave said:

reasonable arguments that gold will be subject to VAT in the UK post brexit

We had vat on Gold before the EU agreement to balance the differences in Gold across the states. I suspect that bullion might escape, but  not betting on that outcome. I suspect that it will take a while before someone in the govt realises that Gold isn’t taxed and decide its time again... 

[KDave]

5 minutes ago, ilovesilverireallydo said:

We had vat on Gold before the EU agreement to balance the differences in Gold across the states. I suspect that bullion might escape, but  not betting on that outcome. I suspect that it will take a while before someone in the govt realises that Gold isn’t taxed and decide its time again... 

Very interesting I didn't realise we had VAT on gold previously. This adds to the theory of tax on gold if it could be reintroduced with historic precedent, how sad if this is what comes to pass. I would not be surprised, it would go hand in hand with the elimination of cash we see elsewhere in the world, and effectively curtail economic choice - you either play with the rest in the paper markets or you pay heavily for the privilege of not doing so. 

[ilovesilverireallydo]

10 minutes ago, KDave said:

Very interesting I didn't realise we had VAT on gold previously. This adds to the theory of tax on gold if it could be reintroduced with historic precedent, how sad if this is what comes to pass. I would not be surprised, it would go hand in hand with the elimination of cash we see elsewhere in the world, and effectively curtail economic choice - you either play with the rest in the paper markets or you pay heavily for the privilege of not doing so. 

It’s really illuminating how blasé the HMRC are in response to their vat policy, coins are legal tender for one purpose and not for another. If you really want to see their attitude you should read this which also outlines their reason for no current vat on Gold https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/152228/response/375576/attach/html/3/FoI siver coins Mr Mason 1 0 2013 04 04.pdf.html

[sixgun]

@ilovesilverireallydo as we have seen it is an offence to melt down legal tender. You cannot get the silver or gold out of a legal tender coin unless you melt it down.

A legal tender coin made of silver is only a legal tender coin until the silver is extracted.

The gold and silver has legally been trapped in the coin.

HMRC is dealing with coins made of silver as if they are pieces of silver. Silver has a value b/c it can be used. Silver in the form of legal tender can only be used as legal tender and so has that face value.

There appears to be a presumption the silver in the coins is available to used as silver and so has the value of silver. They are taxing the coins made of silver not as currency but as pieces of silver. There is a presumption they will be melted down and so are treated as such. The way they charge tax on the coins encourages the extraction of the silver. They are presuming an offence will be committed and encouraging its commission.

Serious Crime Act 2007

45 Encouraging or assisting an offence believing it will be committed

A person commits an offence if—

(a)he does an act capable of encouraging or assisting the commission of an offence; and

(b)he believes—

(i)that the offence will be committed; and

(ii)that his act will encourage or assist its commission.

[ilovesilverireallydo]

6 hours ago, sixgun said:

gold and silver has legally been trapped in the coin.

Therein lies one of the biggest vat cons. Silver coins sell at such high volume that they don’t want to lose the revenue despite the law saying something entirely different. Vat on silver currency is my biggest bugbear. 

[Martlet]

2 hours ago, ilovesilverireallydo said:

Therein lies one of the biggest vat cons. Silver coins sell at such high volume that they don’t want to lose the revenue despite the law saying something entirely different. Vat on silver currency is my biggest bugbear. 

Hmmm, the law doesn't say something different though, as shown in the link you posted, the VAT law says it should apply to silver.  It's in conflict with another law, which is another matter.  Someone would need to challenge it in court to decide which has precedence, until then the HMRC will continue to apply apply EU VAT regulations.  On leaving the EU, it will be an opportunity to review this, we should probably lobby MPs to look at this as a quick win to show leaving the EU means taking control of our own law. 

[ilovesilverireallydo]

29 minutes ago, Martlet said:

On leaving the EU, it will be an opportunity to review this, we should probably lobby MPs to look at this as a quick win to show leaving the EU means taking control of our own law

I think upon leaving Brexit we will probably see a return on VAT even on investment gold. From Mark Mason, who tried to challenge and failed several times: 

 

Quote

 

All currency classified as legal tender should lawfully be treated the same. It is the face value and legal status that makes currency legal tender in the eyes of the law. The fact that it is a paper note or coin is completely irrelevant. 

Each coin and note issued is authorised by Royal Proclamation in accordance with the requirements laid down by the Coinage Act 1971. This means that in common with other coins and paper notes in general circulation, silver Britannia coins from the Royal Mint have legal tender status. 

Britannia silver coins contain one troy ounce of silver and have a face value of £2. 

 

the Coinage Act supersedes VAT rules  - although challenging the HMRC will never go anywhere.