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Newb Question - Old Sovs Vs New Sovs


Foolssilver

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Hello All,

I've been trying my hand at SIlver Stacking for a few months now and have built up something of a "foundation stack".  Recently i've decided to also diversify by starting in the world of Gold.  Its early days for me so far but i've bough a few fractional Brits and the odd Sov.  So far, I've only bought new coins from very recent years in "as new" condition.  I'm now struggling internally as to whether to continue by buying more of the same or by buying some older Sovs or "random years".  The collector in me tells me to buy older pieces so i have different bits to look at but part of me does prefer the idea of new coins that are in good condition.

So far i've got the following Pros:

New Coins

- Perfect condition

- Potentially less risk of fakes as i've typically been buying from mainstream dealers

- Typically come capsuled or in a RM Blister

Old Coins

- Potentially Cheaper/Less premium (HGM)

- Something different to look at in the stack

 

My question is are there any other factors that i am missing ........ or is there any suggestion to how the value of Sovs or Brits will be affected by condition?  Does anyone have an opinion of what may be of more interest to collectors if i was trying to sell ten or twenty years down the line - premium condition or varied years and age?

 

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New Coins

- Relatively low mintage compared to older dates. May or may not be a factor in the future.

- Look horrible, like copper pennies.

Old Coins

- Lots of collectable coins

- Lots of history you can research and keep you interested

- Lots of options to get you into collecting them, different mints, different monarchs

- They actually look like gold, even the bashed up ones look nice compared to the brand new shiny penny horrible welsh mint sovereigns - in my opinion! :P 

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Get what is at a decent price. If you get them near spot you will always be able to sell them for near spot. Get some capsules. Don't clean them.

Atkinsons, Hatton Garden Metals, Chard and others have decent prices. Numistacker showed a sovereign today which he got from HGM as a lucky dip.

Members of the forum sell sovereigns quite regularly. i think if i had a choice i would not buy the newer coins. Young head Victorias whether shield or not are always popular. i would get young head Elizabeth and earlier although more recent unique year designs also sell well.

Start tomorrow -

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

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Agreed - take it from an older stacker - older Sovs have.....

Beauty - you can buy a really nice coin at close to spot.
Rarity - you might pick up a rarer coin by chance rather than a "new" multi mintage coin.
History - 2017 compared to say 1887 - no contest on that one.
Delight - receiving older coins always puts a smile on my face - new coins stay in their boxes!
Feelability - you can handle an old coin but dare not touch a new one!

I could think of a few more but I will leave you to decide.....

Good luck, whatever you do!!

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Get capsules for the good ones with lots of detail but if they are banged up just keep them in a tube. The banged up ones are good for holding without gloves. The new shiny copper penny ones are good for that too but they have horrible shiny fields and show finger prints - but thats ok, they look better with finger prints. 

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You want to get into older sovs......get studying......read and research books like Marsh etc and make sure you get skilled in grading...........the difference you have re the grade of a coin can and that of someone else can make a shed load of difference in sales/purchase price.

Personally I believe if you are not confident in your ability to place a good and appropriate grading on a coin stay away from numismatics and just buy bullion.There are loads of old bullion sovs around so not a problem but will become one if you start collecting 1817s' and 1820s' etc

Good luck,there is quite a lot :) of stuff to get interested in........set a goal to as to exactly what you want to collect,monarchs.mint marks,proofs or not, etc its a minefield out there so take your time and dont rush into it.

Shop around as well big differences in prices between dealers and also p&p never fails to add to costs.Also dont be afraid to haggle the price you are willing to pay and dont always take the original offer price.

 

 

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17 hours ago, sixgun said:

Get what is at a decent price. If you get them near spot you will always be able to sell them for near spot. Get some capsules. Don't clean them.

Atkinsons, Hatton Garden Metals, Chard and others have decent prices. Numistacker showed a sovereign today which he got from HGM as a lucky dip.

Members of the forum sell sovereigns quite regularly. i think if i had a choice i would not buy the newer coins. Young head Victorias whether shield or not are always popular. i would get young head Elizabeth and earlier although more recent unique year designs also sell well.

Start tomorrow -

Thanks for the thoughts. 

 

Quick question - if you are buying random years from the main dealers are we confident they will have been tested and are authentic?

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1 hour ago, Foolssilver said:

Thanks for the thoughts. 

 

Quick question - if you are buying random years from the main dealers are we confident they will have been tested and are authentic?

Why would random years be any more likely to be fake? There are some very keen eyes on this forum. Sovereign Steve is very experienced by my reckoning. i have not heard anyone say the likes of Atkinsons or Chard have sold a dud. Chard does a video on fake sovereigns. These people are dealing with more sovereigns than we have had hot dinners. Get them from one of the main dealers. As far as i know they have testing equipment. Their reputation is on the line.

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

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5 hours ago, Foolssilver said:

Quick question - if you are buying random years from the main dealers are we confident they will have been tested and are authentic?

Depends what you mean by main dealers?

There are bullion dealers, numismatic dealers and some that are a combination of both. Whereas a bullion dealer will ensure the coin is the correct alloy of gold, I'm not convinced they could spot the odd fake sovereign they are likely to come across. Some I am certain could not, in fact, we know a certain popular bullion dealer has sold many fakes over the past few years. I also wouldn't be confident in the numismatic knowledge of another very well know dealer.
You need to do your research and find out a dealer's reputation. Only buy from ones you can trust unless you gain enough knowledge yourself to check the authenticity of what you receive. It really is more fun to do this yourself and not have to trust the integrity and competence of others. Gain the knowledge and take more enjoyment from your hobby:)

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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On 26/02/2018 at 22:48, sixgun said:

Get what is at a decent price. If you get them near spot you will always be able to sell them for near spot. Get some capsules. Don't clean them.

Atkinsons, Hatton Garden Metals, Chard and others have decent prices. Numistacker showed a sovereign today which he got from HGM as a lucky dip.

Members of the forum sell sovereigns quite regularly. i think if i had a choice i would not buy the newer coins. Young head Victorias whether shield or not are always popular. i would get young head Elizabeth and earlier although more recent unique year designs also sell well.

Start tomorrow -

 

On 26/02/2018 at 23:15, SovTracker said:

Agreed - take it from an older stacker - older Sovs have.....

Beauty - you can buy a really nice coin at close to spot.
Rarity - you might pick up a rarer coin by chance rather than a "new" multi mintage coin.
History - 2017 compared to say 1887 - no contest on that one.
Delight - receiving older coins always puts a smile on my face - new coins stay in their boxes!
Feelability - you can handle an old coin but dare not touch a new one!

I could think of a few more but I will leave you to decide.....

Good luck, whatever you do!!

 

On 26/02/2018 at 21:56, KDave said:

New Coins

- Relatively low mintage compared to older dates. May or may not be a factor in the future.

- Look horrible, like copper pennies.

Old Coins

- Lots of collectable coins

- Lots of history you can research and keep you interested

- Lots of options to get you into collecting them, different mints, different monarchs

- They actually look like gold, even the bashed up ones look nice compared to the brand new shiny penny horrible welsh mint sovereigns - in my opinion! :P 

 

3 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

Depends what you mean by main dealers?

There are bullion dealers, numismatic dealers and some that are a combination of both. Whereas a bullion dealer will ensure the coin is the correct alloy of gold, I'm not convinced they could spot the odd fake sovereign they are likely to come across. Some I am certain could not, in fact, we know a certain popular bullion dealer has sold many fakes over the past few years. I also wouldn't be confident in the numismatic knowledge of another very well know dealer.
You need to do your research and find out a dealer's reputation. Only buy from ones you can trust unless you gain enough knowledge yourself to check the authenticity of what you receive. It really is more fun to do this yourself and not have to trust the integrity and competence of others. Gain the knowledge and take more enjoyment from your hobby:)

I'm very new to PM's too and only 4 months into the journey.  Here's my thoughts so far from a newcomers point of view.  But my summing up is that it is the be all and end all, and very important to Focus when investing in PM's (now you don't need to read all the waffle below!).   

My initial strategy was to buy PM's as close to spot and stack em' high and not get emotional over metal.  What I actually ended up with initially, was a load of Silver, some of which, I really didn't like much at all.   Too many odd bits of coin series and some very odd sized bars that offered no consistency, looked terrible and not enjoyable to own, but lots of it.  In terms of initial Gold purchases, I jumped straight into owning Proof Gold coins random years of no significance- chiefly modern half's and quarter Sovereigns (Quarters being the worse value Sovereign money can buy!), a Fourth Head Sovereign and a Young Head Victoria for good measure.

My Focus now is that I have honed down to:

Silver- Britannia BU, Queen's Beasts BU 2oz & 10oz, Provident 2oz Egyptian Series & 1oz Landmark Series on top of these, I have to admit, I do buy the odd coin I truly like as a one off's. And as much junk American coins and larger Bars as I can,  when cheap.  My guilty pleasure is hand poured Silver and I own some very nice@BackyardBullion hand poured items and will probably continue to buy more, as well as from other hand poured specialists.  I have shied away from Proof Silver so far.  

Gold, the Proof Half and Quarter Sovereigns are now gone! My strategy is now modern BU Sovereign, BU Britannia and Proof Fractional Britannia 1/10 & 1/4's when in fab condition and reasonably priced.  Also, I'm picking up the QB's 1/4 oz Gold BU as and when they are released.  (I won't talk anymore about fractional proof Britannia coins, but I have got a lot to say about this apparently, unloved and overlooked, gorgeous little coin).   

By buying modern isn't to say that I wouldn't consider buying old Sovereign coins, I particularly like the Young Head Victoria and in time (when I can find the time), I will do my research on Sovereign coins and armed with that knowledge I'm sure it will lead me to be endeared and savvy to what is realistically available (within my budget) to buy and collect.  But in the absence of detailed knowledge and therefore, confidence in buying, modern Sovereign coins will currently allow me wealth preservation, with very little risk and with a dash of collecting fun thrown in for good measure.  

To conclude my thoughts on Focus- and the waffle I've written above, is this.  

I like old Sovereign coins, but really don't at the moment, know where to start as my knowledge of them is not sufficient to jump in right now. But I acknowledge the enthusiasm and rationale both @KDave & @sixgun (quoted) have for the older era Sovereign.  But my approach in the future to Sovereign buying hopefully, will be very much like @sixgun cited (and quoted above), Young Head and 'unique' designs.   But for now, and as opposed to @KDave's view, my thoughts are that modern Sovereign are not 'horrible' to look at, and some of the BU coins have finish, lustre and definition that can be very eye catching and pleasing.  There is lots of fun to be had in collecting modern Sovereign coins- Pre- Decimal and Decimal right the way through to those in Fifth Head, minted only yesterday.  There are several 'unique' date coins in BU (and some beautiful Proof, 2017 Anniversary for example) which are radically different to the traditional design, such as the 2005 & 2012 (and these editions, I suspect will continue to hold a good premium in the years to come), there's also a modern Shield and a Tudor (good luck with finding and owning that one!).  Modern coins can be built up readily in 'mini' runs that might coincide with very personal anniversaries such as family member birth dates and are best of all, mostly accessible in terms of price and availability.

@sovereignsteve makes important points to note on fakes and dealers in general.  My addition to all the points above is to try and find a good specialist coin dealer close to where you live, or do a bit of travelling to get to one with a good reputation, but moreover, find a dealer who you get on with, they are interesting, and willing to spend time with you and take an interest in what your needs are and offer constructive feedback of a counter view, strategy or approach.  This is how we all learn from each other here on the Forum, but a local(ish) dealer you can visit from time to time, who holds lots of interesting and diverse stock to look at and therefore, what you can hold in your hand is a fantastic resource, much better than clicking a mouse on a screen.  

Only my two Penneth.  

But in addition, I'm of the opinion that its absolutely fine to handle your BU modern coins, if thats what you want to do, they are yours after all! I personally choose to capsulate them and keep them nice and shiny!  

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On 27/02/2018 at 18:24, sixgun said:

Why would random years be any more likely to be fake? There are some very keen eyes on this forum. Sovereign Steve is very experienced by my reckoning. i have not heard anyone say the likes of Atkinsons or Chard have sold a dud. Chard does a video on fake sovereigns. These people are dealing with more sovereigns than we have had hot dinners. Get them from one of the main dealers. As far as i know they have testing equipment. Their reputation is on the line.

We have training on spotting fakes. Most are easy to spot - orange peel, poor definition, alignment - but some need more investigation. We use a Niton metal analyser and will test in various parts of the coin, obverse and reverse. We also have several people that coins are checked by when buying and selling. 

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44 minutes ago, ChardLizzie said:

We have training on spotting fakes. Most are easy to spot - orange peel, poor definition, alignment - but some need more investigation. We use a Niton metal analyser and will test in various parts of the coin, obverse and reverse. We also have several people that coins are checked by when buying and selling. 

As i have said elsewhere Chard are the experts.

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

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1 hour ago, ChardLizzie said:

We have training on spotting fakes. Most are easy to spot - orange peel, poor definition, alignment - but some need more investigation. We use a Niton metal analyser and will test in various parts of the coin, obverse and reverse. We also have several people that coins are checked by when buying and selling. 

@ChardLizzieCan you tell me,is it as big a problem as everyone fears?

do you see a large number of fakes?

 

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4 hours ago, JunkBond said:

I may have just picked up a fake/jewellers copy half sov from Atkinsons, it's being returned to them tomorrow, I will update here on what the outcome is.

Oh no, sorry to hear that, hope all is resolved quickly and easily? Is there a photo?

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11 hours ago, Ansel said:

Oh no, sorry to hear that, hope all is resolved quickly and easily? Is there a photo?

Its not struck central on the planchet and is thicker than normal and weighs 3.98g

1887 2.jpg

1887 1.jpg

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it would be interesting to know the SD of this coin. Is it too thick in general or just the rim. If it is a low SD, Atties should have picked it up on XRF analysis.
You usually find with these fakes that it's the letters and numbers that are the giveaway.  With this one, this aspect immediately looks odd to my eyes.

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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@sovereignsteve

I have compared it to my other half sovs for thickness and its thicker at the rim, I am not sure about the rest of the coin area as I don't have calipers.

I don't doubt it is gold given the weight and would just keep it if I had paid bullion price for it but at the premium paid I want the real thing.

It certainly appears oddly struck compared to this.

 

1138-1976-0-1200-618.png

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5 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

the (R)EGINA looks quite tight against the rim versus

BRITANNI(R)UM? the rim dots(forget what they are called)

looks inconsistent at thes two points?

 

HH

Yes, definitely struck off centre, but were any genuine coins struck such? or is this always a sign of a fake. :rolleyes:

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