Gold Stacking and Ethics

[onlyroadtoheaven]

I was going to name this "Gold Rush Season 8" to see if anyone watches the TV series on Discovery/Amazon.

However as enjoyable as I find watching the programmes it does illustrate the complete destruction of large areas of the natural environment to obtain the Gold (although in this case it's only Canada ). As a person that has never dropped a crisp packet in his life and volunteers for an animal charity I am uncomfortable with this. However as a greedy person that would like to be rich and likes shiny things, I try to ignore the morals.

Does anyone else struggle with these morals? Do you think that buying 2nd hand silver from the forum overrides this as its basically recycling and not obtaining it from source? Your wisdom is appreciated.

 

[blab]

I was going to name this "Gold Rush Season 8" to see if anyone watches the TV series on Discovery/Amazon.
However as enjoyable as I find watching the programmes it does illustrate the complete destruction of large areas of the natural environment to obtain the Gold (although in this case it's only Canada [emoji4]). As a person that has never dropped a crisp packet in his life and volunteers for an animal charity I am uncomfortable with this. However as a greedy person that would like to be rich and likes shiny things, I try to ignore the morals.
Does anyone else struggle with these morals? Do you think that buying 2nd hand silver from the forum overrides this as its basically recycling and not obtaining it from source? Your wisdom is appreciated.
 

Ive watched Gold Rush since the first season. I think once they have mined all the gold in that area they fill it back over woith soil, so eventually everything will regrow in time.

[PansPurse]

Wrings hands

Yes this bothers me too. I can't say it's much better or worse than other rare earth minerals, it's effectively impossible (at present at least) to make a smartphone and be sure that no conflict-minerals are involved in its manufacturing. But cryptocurrencies use disproportionate amounts of energy, and prevent gamers from getting decent graphics cards. There's potentially a deep rabbit hole of self-recrimination, especially when one starts to look into where our wealth comes from (hint, if you're form the UK odds are it's not far removed from the plundering of empire).

Perhaps the more useful question is what can you do that actually has a positive impact? For example supporting small businesses (like bullion dealers or people who make interesting things) or maybe keeping a separate stack that's to be donated to a meaningful charity?

[Roy]

Interesting subject.

If I were clever, I'd say I only stack pre '32 sovereigns 

 

[Martlet]

If you start worrying about the real impact of human endeavour and winding it all back, you end up in the iron age or the bronze age.  Some would say fire was a bad idea.  Im always bemused by online environmentalist warriors banging on about use of carbon fuels or plastics, oblivious to the massive consumption of materials used to make wind turbines, solar panels and the computer, servers, routers, cables that facilitate their communication.

[PansPurse]

2 minutes ago, Martlet said:

If you start worrying about the real impact of human endeavour and winding it all back, you end up in the iron age or the bronze age.  Some would say fire was a bad idea.  Im always bemused by online environmentalist warriors banging on about use of carbon fuels or plastics, oblivious to the massive consumption of materials used to make wind turbines, solar panels and the computer, servers, routers, cables that facilitate their communication.

That's actually a bit of an interesting one, if anything the energy efficiency of the entire IT/computing sector has improved dramatically over the last several decades

[Elements]

I’ve watched them all. I always wondered what happens after they’ve mined. Yesterday, Parker’s team finished scribner creek and it was the first episode I recall them every showing what they do after, all be it brief, they filled it back in and let wildlife reclaim the land.

The vast expense in both human and fuel requied to get what they get is amazing

[JunkBond]

Please don't tell me I have to be politically correct buying gold bullion now! Spare me guys please.

[Martlet]

17 minutes ago, PansPurse said:

That's actually a bit of an interesting one, if anything the energy efficiency of the entire IT/computing sector has improved dramatically over the last several decades

The efficiency of compute may have increased, but the amount of compute has exponentially increased.  We get more calculations per Watt, but do far, far, far more calculations.  However the real point is the total impact of production, silicon wasn't found on a beach, millions of miles of copper cables didn't grow on trees, so on. Civilization has an environmental cost, we can and should be less wastful, recycle what ever we can but lets be aware of the consequences of rolling back technology that uses all those materials.

 

And to the original proposition, should we stack second hand, this doesn't really solve the "moral" question as you are increasing demand in the second hand market, which in turn increases demand for new.   It might make you feel warm and fuzzy, but have less practical impact than you think.

[kimchi]

Wow I didn't know that, that makes me uncomfortable, and has certainly made me think, thank you.

I guess for me unless you opt out totally and live completely off-grid, and only ever barter with folk who are the same, then you are part of the problem, and I haven't seen anyone even close to that in the UK. The nearest is a chap who lives off grid and is 99% self-sufficient, but he still takes paid work occasionally to pay for his mobile phone so he can have internet, and still gets what little post he receives delivered by Royal Mail.

The truth of it is everything we have is metaphorically soaked in blood. All our known history is built on exploitation, killing and destruction. However indirectly, children in the third world starve and die so we don't have to. And yet here we are, so many of us struggling to keep our own heads above water (perhaps not so many on here) - so many a whisker away from being that homeless guy or gal on the street who gets a kicking from others just for 'the hell' of it.

I believe everything has to, and will, change, and soon. Until it does we're all culpable to some extent. Obviously it's best morally to avoid the worst complicities, and now you've got me thinking about where my PMs come from...

Is there such a thing as 'ethically sourced PMs'? I doubt it. Would folk pay extra for them if they existed? I doubt that too.

Hmmm.

[PansPurse]

2 minutes ago, Martlet said:

The efficiency of compute may have increased, but the amount of compute has exponentially increased.  We get more calculations per Watt, but do far, far, far more calculations.  However the real point is the total impact of production, silicon wasn't found on a beach, millions of miles of copper cables didn't grow on trees, so on. Civilization has an environmental cost, we can and should be less wastful, recycle what ever we can but lets be aware of the consequences of rolling back technology that uses all those materials.

True, and I'm certainly not going to say technology is a bad thing. Actually I suspect some of it may become moot because of advances in materials science. Some US researchers did a survey of scientific literature recently and concluded that most rare minerals in the electronics industry could be replaced with various carbon nanomaterials

[PansPurse]

Ooh, another interesting point on energy use. An alternative to using less is simply changing where we source it from. Norway's state oil company recently announced that its future plans focus on using its expertise in off shore operations to create off shore wind farms, which strikes me as a genius way of using the talent they've already built up.

[sixgun]

There are many issues with wind farms. Off shore they may not cull as many birds as they do on land. They supply too much energy when it is windy and none when the wind stops blowing. They need an alternative energy supply to cover everything as are we supposed to do without power when the wind stops blowing?

They actually work out pretty expensive.

Better come clean about the technology harnessing the limitless power of the electric universe and pay Tesla due respect. But hey they would be truly green; there again the slightly higher levels of carbon dioxide have caused the planet to become greener. They've got me all confused with their contradictory propaganda. Good job i think for myself and do my own investigations. That way i know they talk BS all the time.

[PansPurse]

3 minutes ago, sixgun said:

There are many issues with wind farms. Off shore they may not cull as many birds as they do on land. They supply too much energy when it is windy and none when the wind stops blowing. They need an alternative energy supply to cover everything as are we supposed to do without power when the wind stops blowing?

That's definitely an important factor and things like wind power aren't a complete solution; that's why a lot of research is going into energy storage technology and dynamic grid balancing, smart grids and microgrids. It's actually a pretty interesting area of research/development.

[KDave]

Nature cares nothing for human ethics as can be witnessed every single time there is a flood, a volcanic eruption, an earthquake, ebola, spanish flu, an asteroid impact that wipes out 85% of life, for example. Does digging up acres of barren wilderness in Canada matter in that context? 

In the case of the Klondike, I would actually argue humanity gains nothing from leaving the land as is but I am ignorant of its use as it currently is. Others may disagree and have good reason to keep it left in its current state. Nature doesn't give a proverbial what you do as per my previous examples, this is a human value discussion based on our perceived values (and emotion and sentiment) of what exists now. If there is sentimental value for Canadian wilderness then we have national park status for that. Gold from a national park? Yes please 

[Nora]

This is very interesting thread, thanks for all sharing your thoughts.  This is not something I have really thought of much before, but I think it is an important topic.  I find myself having a reaction similar to these:

22 minutes ago, kimchi said:

Wow I didn't know that, that makes me uncomfortable, and has certainly made me think, thank you.

I guess for me unless you opt out totally and live completely off-grid, and only ever barter with folk who are the same, then you are part of the problem, and I haven't seen anyone even close to that in the UK. The nearest is a chap who lives off grid and is 99% self-sufficient, but he still takes paid work occasionally to pay for his mobile phone so he can have internet, and still gets what little post he receives delivered by Royal Mail.

The truth of it is everything we have is metaphorically soaked in blood. All our known history is built on exploitation, killing and destruction. However indirectly, children in the third world starve and die so we don't have to. And yet here we are, so many of us struggling to keep our own heads above water (perhaps not so many on here) - so many a whisker away from being that homeless guy or gal on the street who gets a kicking from others just for 'the hell' of it.

I believe everything has to, and will, change, and soon. Until it does we're all culpable to some extent. Obviously it's best morally to avoid the worst complicities, and now you've got me thinking about where my PMs come from...

Is there such a thing as 'ethically sourced PMs'? I doubt it. Would folk pay extra for them if they existed? I doubt that too.

Hmmm.

48 minutes ago, PansPurse said:

Wrings hands

Yes this bothers me too. I can't say it's much better or worse than other rare earth minerals, it's effectively impossible (at present at least) to make a smartphone and be sure that no conflict-minerals are involved in its manufacturing. But cryptocurrencies use disproportionate amounts of energy, and prevent gamers from getting decent graphics cards. There's potentially a deep rabbit hole of self-recrimination, especially when one starts to look into where our wealth comes from (hint, if you're form the UK odds are it's not far removed from the plundering of empire).

Perhaps the more useful question is what can you do that actually has a positive impact? For example supporting small businesses (like bullion dealers or people who make interesting things) or maybe keeping a separate stack that's to be donated to a meaningful charity?

I do like @PansPurse's idea of focusing on ways to have a positive impact.  I am trying to have a positive impact by advocating for the use of precious metals as legal tender, so then people won't loose purchasing power over time by inflation or other economic problems that fiat currencies are prone to.  When people loose money in this way, they suffer, especially those who are already poor.  I hadn't really thought about where the physical metals come from, although, there is already so much gold and silver out there that could be used as a means of exchange even without more mining.  I do think that the good of preventing human suffering through the economic stability of a currency that sustains its purchasing power over time is greater than the harm to the environment from mining.  What are your thoughts on this?

[sixgun]

12 minutes ago, Nora said:

.....although, there is already so much gold and silver out there that could be used as a means of exchange even without more mining.

There is lots of gold, even if the stories of the Grand Canyon and other mountains of gold in the East are untrue. There is enough gold to back a currency and it looks like some people are trying to do that as we speak. There is not enough silver. This is why i haven't bought gold for a good while but i keep buying silver. The price of silver has been too low to encourage mining and we will have shortage especially if bullion silver gets drawn into Kinesis. All we need is a few hedge funds to jump into vaulted physical silver and there will be serious shortages which will catapult price up multiples of today's derisory price.

[StackerNoob]

1 hour ago, onlyroadtoheaven said:

I was going to name this "Gold Rush Season 8" to see if anyone watches the TV series on Discovery/Amazon.

However as enjoyable as I find watching the programmes it does illustrate the complete destruction of large areas of the natural environment to obtain the Gold (although in this case it's only Canada ). As a person that has never dropped a crisp packet in his life and volunteers for an animal charity I am uncomfortable with this. However as a greedy person that would like to be rich and likes shiny things, I try to ignore the morals.

Does anyone else struggle with these morals? Do you think that buying 2nd hand silver from the forum overrides this as its basically recycling and not obtaining it from source? Your wisdom is appreciated.

 

Its an interesting point. I do watch the show pruely for entertainment and I enjoy it, but they dont half screw up the land while doing it.

 

One solution might be to use bullion producers that use more ethical means. Im a big advocate of Umicores bars. My understanding is that Umicore are primarily a recyling company nowadays rather than mining, and they source their PMs from recylcing electronics. I have theri 250, 500 and 1kg bars and they are my favourite pieces by a mile!

[Xander]

I suppose future generations will judge us on what we refused to destroy rather than what we have created. The more we recycle the less we need to mine...if only PMs weren't so tempting. 

[kimchi]

6 minutes ago, Xander said:

I suppose future generations will judge us on what we refused to destroy rather than what we have created. The more we recycle the less we need to mine...if only PMs weren't so tempting. 

 

It was a few months ago I watched it but there's a chap on Youtube who buys bulk shredded PC boards and painstakingly reclaims the gold. It's not economical under the present system, at the time of the vid at least (I don't think much has changed there - yet), he said he was only doing it (I think) to prove a point.

Personally I hope one day it's economical and we don't need to any longer exploit third world countries like we have for many hundreds of years.

[KDave]

Gold has a value and the land that it sits under has a value. When the value of gold outweighs the value of the land - guess what happens. Market forces yes, exploitation no. If the land is seen as valuable enough it will be protected. No illogical guilt trips required.

[Augustus1]

well  I have lived approx. 3/4 of my life now, so have done all the damage I am likely to do to this earth and cant change that, and to be honest what little time I have I have other things to worry about, selfish may be but what the sun goes supanova it matter a dam what we did here on earth!

dean.m

[kimchi]

17 minutes ago, KDave said:

Gold has a value and the land that it sits under has a value. When the value of gold outweighs the value of the land - guess what happens. Market forces yes, exploitation no. If the land is seen as valuable enough it will be protected. No illogical guilt trips required.

The problem is 'we' don't pay the global price for the land and potential gold beneath it. There is no global market price for such land. We either pay local prices for the land (which may seem like a small fortune for the folk that live there, but is just a few $s for us), we pay them a bit of a premium (which seems like a windfall to them), we force them off or (historically at least) we just kill them and take it anyway.

Gaddiffi was matey with Blair for a brief time, remember that? Then suddenly he was planning a pan-African global currency backed by gold. The next thing you know we have live footage from the Whitehouse as Obama and Hillary whoop and holler at him being speared up the rear end and decapitated by folks they probably financed and armed.

It's not rocket science.

 

[KDave]

Its not rocket science I agree.

[Martlet]

1 hour ago, kimchi said:

 

It was a few months ago I watched it but there's a chap on Youtube who buys bulk shredded PC boards and painstakingly reclaims the gold. It's not economical under the present system, at the time of the vid at least (I don't think much has changed there - yet), he said he was only doing it (I think) to prove a point.

Personally I hope one day it's economical and we don't need to any longer exploit third world countries like we have for many hundreds of years.

I know the video(s) you refer to, fascinating.  It is economical if you can gain enough scale to cover the labour and invest in machines to automated as much as possible.  IT kit is sent to recycling for this reason, they also strip and recycle copper, other metals out of the mass of consumer product.  The thing left is the plastic, and much of that can be recycled if you have a use for the lower grade output.  In the process there's an amount of energy and a lot of chemicals used, so its not without some impact.  Friend of mine works in the local scrapyard, I was surprised how much they do recycle nowadays.