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Ryland

Brexit opinions?? Will you ever be allowed to leave?

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There were many reasons that led me to vote for Brexit,  the question of sovereignty and decision making by people I can at least vote out if they get it wrong rather than unelected beurocrats I can't, the contributions where we pay them and they give us back part of it and tell us how to spend it.  The continual expansion of the EU was another concern, just how many piss poor countries does it intend to include, at the time there was talk of Turkey joining (the failed US coup put paid to that at least and now they have completely swung East instead), Asia MInor and Africa is not where I want the EU to head.  Also not once has a receiver country ever progressed to becoming a contributor country, if the EU was indeed as good as it is continually being made out to be surely at least one country could have managed it by now.  

It was not until years later that we become aware that we made the smart move, looking back not signing up to the Euro turned out to be the smart move, not signing up to Shenghen turned out to be the smart move and it's the same with leaving the EU, there will be short term pain but in years to come it's going to turn out to be the smart move.

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The heart of the matter can all be boiled down to the U.K. getting caught up in the lies that lead to global collectivism.  I’m reminded of this quote from Atlas Shugged: 

 

"You have reached the blind alley of the treason you committed when you agreed that you had no right to exist. Once, you believed it was "only a compromise": you conceded it was evil to live for yourself, but moral to live for the sake of your children. Then you conceded that it was selfish to live for your children, but moral to live for your community. Then you conceded that it was selfish to live for your community, but moral to live for your country. Now, you are letting this greatest of countries be devoured by any scum from any corner of the earth, while you concede that it is selfish to live for your country and that your moral duty is to live for the globe." -John Galt

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5 hours ago, savoyard said:

I don't know but this thread smells like pure trolling.

First post, a thread about Brexit. Maybe it's just me!

Whos first post??  Not mine, I’ve posted quite a few times.  I don’t know exactly what your getting at but if you disagree with my opinion which is fine, yours is probably more informed than mine, feel free to state that opinion in a post.  Please don’t accuse me of “trolling” if that is indeed what you’re doing.

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I voted to leave the EU & still would today, what concerns me is how stupid our politicians are, in fact it is frightening how little they know about the business world.

I was watching a group of MP's ( 2 from labour 2 from the tories & 2 from the liberal democrats & it was chaired by some woman who incidentally had slightly more intellect than the rest of them)  on one of those faceless channels on freeview last week.

They were questioning two business men on the implications of leaving the EU & how they & their companies were preparing for Brexit. One guy was from a small company employing 60 people & the other was from GKN a world class engineering company.

What shocked me was the gulf of intellect between the MP's & the two business people they were talking to, it was like a group of 12 year olds talking to a university graduate.

The MP's were absolutely clueless, I hope our Brexit negotiating team has way better candidates fighting our corner in Brussels, but somehow I doubt it.

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On 12/31/2017 at 07:55, motorbikez said:

I voted to leave the EU & still would today, what concerns me is how stupid our politicians are, in fact it is frightening how little they know about the business world.

I was watching a group of MP's ( 2 from labour 2 from the tories & 2 from the liberal democrats & it was chaired by some woman who incidentally had slightly more intellect than the rest of them)  on one of those faceless channels on freeview last week.

They were questioning two business men on the implications of leaving the EU & how they & their companies were preparing for Brexit. One guy was from a small company employing 60 people & the other was from GKN a world class engineering company.

What shocked me was the gulf of intellect between the MP's & the two business people they were talking to, it was like a group of 12 year olds talking to a university graduate.

The MP's were absolutely clueless, I hope our Brexit negotiating team has way better candidates fighting our corner in Brussels, but somehow I doubt it.

It’s the same over here in the US, watching politicians ask stupid questions to Fed chair Janet Yellen.  They ask her things that are either about basic functions of the fed that a free tour of any of the federal reserve buildings would give you the answer to, or they ask questions that are outside of the scope of the fed and more on topic with what THEY should be working to change in congress.  Remember that these are just joe blow people that although may have a lot of money aren’t necessarily intelligent especially when faced with the many topics that are encountered for debate and vote.  I watch senate hearings about finance where they invite various economists and you can tell that the senators who attend only show up to get a sound bite question in and then leave the meeting, any response usually leaves them with a dumb look of confusion because they don’t understand what is being said to them.

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4 minutes ago, PansPurse said:

Wow... I guess I'm in more of a minority opinion than I thought.

Excuse me while I sit in a corner quietly vomiting after reading so much bile.

Ha ha, what is it that you think?  I’m genuinely interested to hear youe opinion 

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5 minutes ago, PansPurse said:

To be honest this thread has really kinda shaken me. I think I'll be logging off for a couple of days.

Really??  That’s strange, sorry about that.  I don’t know why?  Honestly though I’d love to hear your opinion.

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13 hours ago, Ryland said:

Really??  That’s strange, sorry about that.  I don’t know why?  Honestly though I’d love to hear your opinion.

Morning,

OK a good night's sleep really does solve lots of things. Sorry for that slightly melodramatic exit, think I read this thread at a bit of a low moment (also, social media echo chambers are a thing and coming out of them can be a bit of a challenging experience sometimes).

So I guess I would break it down into two main parts, the ideological/political and the personal/emotional.

Politically, I'm strongly pro-Europe. I'd rather not get drawn into a lengthy discussion of it, but my views are roughly that the EU is actually reasonably democratic, that it makes a lot of sense to be closely aligned with our biggest and nearest trading partners, and that the EU absolutely isn't perfect, but that we've got a pretty good track record of influencing it from the inside for our benefit. Also (as I think others have noted) on a pragmatic level, it's really difficult to deliver the kind of Brexit I think lots of people voted for. The EU will likely remain an important source of imports and exports and that will mean things like adopting common standards for goods manufacturing etc. I'm tempted to quote Yes Minister ("If you must do this damn silly thing, don;t do it this damn silly way"), but that's a sweeping statement that doesn't allow for nuance.

On the issue of Scottish independence (I'm Scottish btw, I think some of the references to "Jocks" rubbed me up the wrong way a bit), I think the SNP has at least one leg to stand on. The first independence referendum was pretty close, and one of the big arguments made by the "no" campaign was that leaving the UK would mean leaving the EU. Also, overall, Scotland voted by a significant margin to remain in the EU so there's an argument that Sturgeon has some mandate for pushing for Scotland to remain in the EU.

On the personal front, it kinda hurts. I was born with EU citizenship and have seen benefits from it throughout my life (family members taken seriously ill while on holiday and receiving excellent healthcare, being able to work on the continent without any significant paperwork, having various friends and colleagues who are from the continent and might not be here otherwise). For me, it feels like an important part of my identity. And while I've always been proud of being British, it's been with a kind of sense of looking forward and collaboration, which really feels kind of difficult to reconcile with leaving the EU. I loved 2012 and the Olympics and felt that that was Britain at its best in many ways... I'm probably rambling now; my main point I guess is that it's a highly emotive topic (and yes I can see that it's emotive both ways).

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Great post!  That’s the best argument I’ve heard to stay in the EU.  I’m hesitant to criticize, especially since it’s an emotional topic for you, but I will say that you mention that the EU is democratic.  This is something most in the US don’t understand as well, in the US we are not a democracy we are in fact a republic.  A democracy has major drawbacks and some of them are the very thing that people seem to get angry at in the UK toward the EU.  A democracy meaning rule by magirity, is the same as mob rule.  If a mob drags a man from his home and hangs him with no trial, he was democratically hung because that was the will of the majority.  The problem is that democracy doesn’t protect groups or individuals from mob rule by the use of law, it has to cave to the will of whoever is the largest group.  This is a complex subject that one would have to research on ones own for information because it’s too much to post here.  A good book that states the role of law clearly is “The Law” by Fredric Bastiat.

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1 hour ago, Ryland said:

 in the US we are not a democracy we are in fact a republic.

Ooh, interesting comment. I'll admit I don't quite follow your distinction between democracy and republic. My understanding is roughly this: democracy is a method of selecting leaders based upon voting (In the US you vote for Senators, House Representatives and Presidents if I recall correctly? In the UK we vote for members of parliament (MPs) and members of the European parliament (MEPs)). But that's not a system of government per-se, rather a component for selecting who to govern. I guess in this context I mention it as counter-point to the idea that the EU is a shadowy cabal that issue decrees (actually EU laws need to pass both through the European parliament, who we elect members of, and then through each country's individual government, who we also elect members of).

The wider system is definitely important and that's one thing where the US is fascinating because it was designed from the ground up to have a system of checks and balances to try to prevent any one group having too much power. In the UK we're a "parliamentary democracy" which in practice isn't that different from the US system. We have a lower house (the house of commons, populated by MPs) an upper house (the house of lords, occupied by unelected Lords... which really isn't a great idea in my opinion, but it's what we have). We also have a separate judicial system and carefully circumscribed powers regarding what parliament can and can't do. (indeed, one contentious part of being in the EU is falling under the authority of the European Court of Human Rights that can, say, prevent people being deported).

That said the UK system certainly isn't perfect and is full of weird quirks that basically come from several centuries of parliament gradually negotiating power away from the monarch (in contrast to, say, France, that had an absolute monarch right up until the revolution, whereas our King already had clear limits placed on his power). I mean, we had a revolution too a century or two earlier, but that ended badly when they tried to ban Christmas :lol:

The mob rule/tyranny of the majority is a really tricky problem. Usually our system means that it's not too much of an issue because most issues aren't resolved on a referendum, but the Brexit vote is actually a really good example of tyranny of the majority; there's not a convenient half-way house between staying and going, so pleasing the majority still means displeasing a sizeable chunk of the people (which I fall into).

BTW, thank you for being sensitive re my having feels, it's appreciated.

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I voted Brexit and I would again, (now but this may change) but this government and the opposition has made the biggest cock up of handling it so far.   I’m with you that we should trade, we should be close but we should be in charge of ourselves also.     I don’t want a Spanish/Slovakian/Hungarian politician making our rules/running us like wise I don’t thing we have any business telling them what to do.         I’m involved in agriculture and we have Phil hogan who is Irish in charge of agriculture and he is too biased to Ireland.    

The tories have gone to prove that politicians are quite useless and toothless and the opposition have made sure that it can’t end well for the U.K.       I keep hoping that this incompetence is a cunning plan....... but I won’t hold my breath

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On 08/01/2018 at 19:40, PansPurse said:

Wow... I guess I'm in more of a minority opinion than I thought.

Excuse me while I sit in a corner quietly vomiting after reading so much bile.

Yes, you are in a minority here but you're not the only one. I'm strongly pro-Europe, not necessarily pro EU. The EU is a wishy washy thing. For me it's either a European Federation or nothing. But I really want the negotiations to fail . I want super dooper hard Brexit. I want the Brexiteers to be punished in their wallet. You see, I won't be in this country too long. I have already an exit strategy. I will achieve my own personal Brexit.

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1 hour ago, savoyard said:

Yes, you are in a minority here but you're not the only one. I'm strongly pro-Europe, not necessarily pro EU. The EU is a wishy washy thing. For me it's either a European Federation or nothing. But I really want the negotiations to fail . I want super dooper hard Brexit. I want the Brexiteers to be punished in their wallet. You see, I won't be in this country too long. I have already an exit strategy. I will achieve my own personal Brexit.

That is a pretty spiteful position is it not? I hope for the same thing as you but more for the advantages that hard brexit will bring in the long run rather than the short term pain which in my view is entirely necessary, but obviously not for the same reasons you do. 

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