What happens to gold and silver prices when world goes to a cashless society?

[AlphaBeast]

Interesting read -

Sweden is the most cashless society on the planet, with barely 1% of the value of all payments made using coins or notes last year...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41095004

[sovereignsteve]

3 hours ago, sixgun said:

There was the incident when the Swiss Franc uncoupled from the Euro. The result was the Franc exploded upwards in price. The spread betting company Alpari went bust. It was blamed on 'client losses'. More betters will have been long the Swiss Franc and none of the bets will have been laid off in the market so Alpari got clobbered and went under. 

I'm not so sure you're right. I seem to remember that everyone was shorting the Swissie and it was the best sure thing at the time. It was almost the "carry trade" of the day. The central bank was pegging the franc at below 1.20€ I think it was, by printing francs to buy euros. The traders  were riding the Euro:USD decline at the time knowing it couldn't rise above 1.20€, capping any possible upside. Effectively everyone was making money at the expense of the Swiss bank. In such a scenario why would anyone be long the franc?

This was the problem, when the bank ended the cap, all those short traders instantly lost 30% of their money, none of their stops (if they had them) will have been filled as the franc rose so quickly, it effectively gapped. As the brokers had hedged the trades off, they lost a ton of money that they couldn't recoup from their clients whose accounts had gone into serious negative territory.

 

[Xander]

Cashless society? Another step toward a complete dystopian society where the masses are herded, corralled and controlled by an unseen bureaucracy. The next step will be a chip implant in order to record our every move. A cashless society is nothing but an assault on our freedom. Old Adolf would have loved this.

[Murph]

Didn't that mobile phone sms based payment take off in some African country because it helped poorer people who couldn't afford bank accounts so it's not that bad a thing in all cases.

Bitcoin is probably less of an assault on freedom than cash.  After all when you withdraw cash from your bank it's recorded and paying anything substantial in cash leaves a record.

Less chance of robbery if carrying cash is unusual as well.

[Martlet]

7 hours ago, Murph said:

Bitcoin is probably less of an assault on freedom than cash.  After all when you withdraw cash from your bank it's recorded and paying anything substantial in cash leaves a record.

Same thing with Bitcoin in practice, everything is recorded and publicly broadcast on blockchain.  Once you know someones address you can trace a users purchase history, which isn't great for anonymity.  You have to muck about changing addresses every transaction to mitigate this risk.  M-pesa works because it uses common, well understood device, with a simple network of local traders acting as the gateway (for depositing and withdrawing cash).  Simplicity over complexity. 

Switch cards (debit cards) being accepted about everywhere makes cash pretty unnecessary, though minimum charges (so vendors can cover their fees) and risk of network problems means people would be wise to stick with some backup cash.  In the past 10 years I've experienced 3 localised network outages that meant no card transactions could be accepted.  I don't believe we'd go completely cashless for at least another generation, but the kids today will grow up with cards, virtual coins/credits, online banking on their phone etc so may never see a use for a coin or note. 

[Guest]

Apparently Prince William had a chip implanted at the age of 12.

[sixgun]

12 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

I'm not so sure you're right. I seem to remember that everyone was shorting the Swissie and it was the best sure thing at the time. It was almost the "carry trade" of the day. The central bank was pegging the franc at below 1.20€ I think it was, by printing francs to buy euros. The traders  were riding the Euro:USD decline at the time knowing it couldn't rise above 1.20€, capping any possible upside. Effectively everyone was making money at the expense of the Swiss bank. In such a scenario why would anyone be long the franc?

This was the problem, when the bank ended the cap, all those short traders instantly lost 30% of their money, none of their stops (if they had them) will have been filled as the franc rose so quickly, it effectively gapped. As the brokers had hedged the trades off, they lost a ton of money that they couldn't recoup from their clients whose accounts had gone into serious negative territory.

You may be right in this case. The reason it came to mind was i spoke to a friend of mine the day before who is involved in a deal with several spread betters and from the horses' mouths they are not hedged. This is quite literally a bookie who does not lay bets off, they take the other side and rely on 90% of customers losing 90% of their money, it might have been in 90 days and not the 9 months i originally put. So whenever they get a concentration of bets and the market suddenly and dramatically goes against the spread betting platform, they can be in trouble. 

[sovereignsteve]

12 minutes ago, sixgun said:

You may be right in this case. The reason it came to mind was i spoke to a friend of mine the day before who is involved in a deal with several spread betters and from the horses' mouths they are not hedged. This is quite literally a bookie who does not lay bets off, they take the other side and rely on 90% of customers losing 90% of their money, it might have been in 90 days and not the 9 months i originally put. So whenever they get a concentration of bets and the market suddenly and dramatically goes against the spread betting platform, they can be in trouble. 

I'm sure that's the case in most day to day trading. This was an unusual situation with such a major currency being pegged to another for so long.

[sixgun]

1 hour ago, savoyard said:

Apparently Prince William had a chip implanted at the age of 12.

 

12 hours ago, Xander said:

Cashless society? Another step toward a complete dystopian society where the masses are herded, corralled and controlled by an unseen bureaucracy. The next step will be a chip implant in order to record our every move. A cashless society is nothing but an assault on our freedom. Old Adolf would have loved this.

This is how i see it going. I have thought for several years now that there will be incidents with children [deliberately] going missing, some found horribly murdered and then a child will be found b/c caring farseeing parents had them chipped and they could be found. The media will do its usual thing and parents would start demanding their children were chipped. [Problem, reaction, solution] Chip your child, download an app to your phone and never lose your child again. It becomes the norm. It would not be such a hard sell. Banking details on the chip, cards you cannot lose, health records in case you fall ill and have to be taken to A&E. Chips could be programmed to open locked doors, never lose your door keys, library cards, gym membership, login details, cryptocurrencies. The chips could monitor your biochemistry. You cannot start your car if you have had too much to drink, for diabetics there is an alert if their blood sugar strays too high or low. The list could be very long. All good citizens in society. The problem is these things look good but can and would be used for control. This is the mark of the beast. Big Brother knows where you are every second of the day. 

Revelation 13:17

Quote

And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, so that 

no-one could buy or sell unless he had the mark — the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Were chips and cryptocurrencies foretold in the Bible?

[kimchi]

3 minutes ago, sixgun said:

 

This is how i see it going. I have thought for several years now that there will be incidents with children going missing, some found horribly murdered and then a child will be found b/c they caring farseeing parents had them chipped and they could be found. The media will do its usual thing and parents will start demanding their children as chipped. Down load an app to your phone and never lose your child. It becomes the norm. It would not be such a hard sell. Banking details on the chip, cards you cannot lose, health records in case you fall ill and have to be taken to A&E. Chips could be programmed to open locked doors, never lose your door keys, library cards, gym membership, login details, cryptocurrencies. The chips could monitor your biochemistry. You cannot start your car if you have had too much to drink, for diabetics there is an alert if they blood sugar strays to high or low. The list could be very long. All good citizens in society. The problem is these things look good but can and would be used for control. This is the mark of the beast. Big Brother knows where you are every second of the day. 

 

Spot on for me. Everything points to tptb creating the perfect storm of conditions where people won't need to be encouraged to be chipped, they'll demand it, imo. There are many more, but as well as the examples you've given (and I agree the likeliest route will be something to do with child safety and/or access to food) the illegal immigrant crisis they created fits nicely into this problem-reaction-solution as well.

We already have automatic tills in supermarkets. The problem is at the moment they need someone to assist people with them. When we all have chips even the tills won't be needed. Just walk out the shop with your shopping. The items and yourself will be scanned on the way out, and the charge taken directly. Imagine the convenience, people will love it!

I never use automatic tills and am trying to use cash as much as possible.

My friend is a nice guy, but has fallen for it all hook line and sinker. His whole home is 'smart'. Lights, heating, the garage door, all are controlled by his mobile phone. I asked him what would happen if he lost his phone or his network went down. He couldn't answer me. He'll be first in the queue for a chip, all his problems solved!

[breaktwister]

Good and interesting points here about a cashless society.   Cash is anonymous and offgrid, once you have it in your hand the government can only get its hands on it by stealth taxes (inflation) or direct theft (civil asset forfeiture in the USA).  If cash was to be removed completely then negative interest rates and further taxation on digitally captured wealth will be a certainty.  Can a decentralised currency save us from this?  Ultimately, I doubt it, reason being that governments will do everything they can to protect their centralised, controlled and monitored digital currency monopoly.  They are likely to do this by banning businesses from accepting any other currency and banning banks from making any transfers to known crypto exchanges.  I believe a number of banks already refuse to make such transfers in the USA and UK – what a joke that a bank has the power to refuse to send your money wherever you damn well please.

Essentially, it will be a requirement to use the .gov digital currency to purchase from businesses and governments will tax every purchase in addition to the taxes that are already in place.  All offgrid transactions will be labelled “black market”, “tax evasion” and made illegal and there will be harsh punishments if caught.

We are screwed as the masses will simply do what is convenient and will only realise the mistake when they find their digitally held wealth being eroded by ever increasing government deductions.  Our only hope is that they take it too far too fast leading to revolution against the financial system.

[sixgun]

When you deposit currency in a bank the cash becomes the property of the bank. You could hardly expect the same notes to be returned that you deposited. You become an unsecured creditor of the bank. You join the queue if [when] there is a problem with the bank's finances. 'High/Main Street' banks create most of the currency out of thin air when they make loans. They simply make [electronic] ledger entries. So banks should be swimming in cash, they are creating $trillions out of thin air and 'lending' it out at interest. They are swimming in cash but the people must believe they are on the edge. All the accounting books will never be seen. So the banks are bailed out by the government [the people's money] and next they will be bailed in [the people's money]. When this happens of course there will be a massive financial collapse and a necessary reset. This is when government cryptos appear.

Everyone gets some helicoptered in free crypto so who is not going to accept it, except nothing is actually free. Of course overtime it will be clawed back multi fold. The system is very expensive to run so negative interest rates and charges are essential. There will be the mandatory carbon tax for breathing, to save the planet - we do breathe out carbon dioxide and give off heat. You want your government cryptos you need a chip, you have that number, you are a number. A 'terrorist nation' might hack our chips, steal personal data and wipe the cryptos off. The people are up in arms, what an invasion of our privacy  and our currency is gone. Attack, attack those evil terrorists. It is like some sci fi fiction novel but i can see this unfolding as fact.

[Oldun]

The banks are not the problem. The government borrowing is in my opinion.

[Moi]

Shouldn't think the fact of techno ways of using money would necessarily impact gold silver, if the whole fiat edifice underlying is business as usual. Even flowing more frictionlessly. Except there might be a nostalgia for more physical forms and that might benefit them. 

[breaktwister]

20 minutes ago, Oldun said:

The banks are not the problem. The government borrowing is in my opinion.

The banks are very much the problem.  They charge interest on something they created out of thin air and this is the cause of much of the economic woes we face today, governments included.  Why do we need banks in today's society?  For most people the only role that they play is that of a "payment processor" but anyone who has used bitcoin or other crypto to store and transfer wealth will have realised that if you could be paid your salary into your wallet and were able to purchase goods and pay bills in this manner then banks are not needed.   In respect of loans, these should be managed by the government, not by private banks.  Unfortunately, governments are owned by the banking powers, it has got so far out of control that a concerted effort by world leaders is needed and the chances of this are next to zero.  Any type of significant change to the system will cause collapse and an opportunity was missed for change in 2008, since then plans need to have been put in place for significant reform and it hasn't happened, just more can kicking and exponential debt.

[Guest]

I kind of disagree on where this thread is heading to. Of course the financial elite would like to have the most of us to voluntarily and gladly adhere to a world fiat currency (SDRs?) which is fully trackable. And this is happening right now. Remember that most human beings are sheeple and refuse to give their brain a chance. However the financial and corporate world also needs a tiny niche or people/money/land not subject to central scrutiny. Tax heavens are just one example. If you hold precious metals, you kind of are your own tax heaven king (or queen). Even if it's only 0.01%  of transactions, there will always be some cash. If the Central Bank stops issuing cash, private banks will do. I have stopped worrying. I try to use the system to my advantage. I hold most of my money in cash, silver and gold. Only about 20% is in my bank accounts. One day I'll move abroad with all my stash and start a new life. 

[MancunianStacker]

A bit late to the thread but yeah, cash is no longer money and the only reason it is coloured gold and silver is because most wouldn’t like plastic tokens or casino type chips instead. It’s to carry on the illusion.

Retailers will soon be given free contactless equipment as long as they refuse to take cash. Then they will really have us by the short and curlies. 

Rhwn they’ll try to ban the trade in Bullion no doubt. 10 years to be truly cashless I reckon. 

 

[Oldun]

7 hours ago, breaktwister said:

.   In respect of loans, these should be managed by the government, not by private banks

I disagree. Have you seen how much in ious, bonds, the government has racked up ? And who decided to bail out the banks ? The government.

[breaktwister]

8 minutes ago, Oldun said:

I disagree. Have you seen how much in ious, bonds, the government has racked up ? And who decided to bail out the banks ? The government.

My argument was that there is no need for banks.  Payment processing and loans are both functions that can be satisfied easily via alternative mechanisms.    The fact that they are not, especially when governments had a perfect opportunity to implement alternatives by letting banks fail in 2008, shows how bought our governments are.

[Martlet]

7 minutes ago, breaktwister said:

My argument was that there is no need for banks.  

So how would provide investment for industry?  Seems everyone forgets the origins of banking and lending, to provide finance for new business, commerce and industry to function.  Having this run by government sounds awfully like communism and the record for that is a bit sketchy. 

[breaktwister]

8 minutes ago, Martlet said:

So how would provide investment for industry?  Seems everyone forgets the origins of banking and lending, to provide finance for new business, commerce and industry to function.  Having this run by government sounds awfully like communism and the record for that is a bit sketchy. 

The current system allow banks to "provide finance" out of thin air and take a claim to real world assets as collateral while privatising profits but socialising losses when they fail.  That is a scam of the highest order.   It certainly wouldn't be communism for governments to make loans to its citizens and industries, they already do it for certain industries, business startup funds etc.  Why not extend this type of assistance to folks wanting a mortgage etc?   There are certainly alternatives to todays fraudulent banking system.

[Martlet]

33 minutes ago, breaktwister said:

The current system allow banks to "provide finance" out of thin air and take a claim to real world assets as collateral while privatising profits but socialising losses when they fail.  That is a scam of the highest order.   It certainly wouldn't be communism for governments to make loans to its citizens and industries, they already do it for certain industries, business startup funds etc.  Why not extend this type of assistance to folks wanting a mortgage etc?   There are certainly alternatives to todays fraudulent banking system.

There was certainly a problem with moral hazard in the banking sector was run ten years ago.  That's largely been addressed with programmes to bail in and re-collateralise balance sheets (yes, they do have to hold some substantial assets to lend against, if you believe otherwise then they are doing an awful lot of work and hold a lot of cash and assets for no reason).  The socialised loses were in practice limited to a few banks, which are paying back their bailouts.  The major impact and cause of recession was the lack of lending, as the banks feared others debts would leave them covering loses, so they preferred to hold than invest.  How this scenario is resolved in some alternative means finance would be interesting to hypothesise, I don't see its realistic as people, individuals, are generally risk averse and economically conservative.  You might be able to run crowd funding to pay for mortgages (we used to with building societies) or small scale start ups, I don't see that scaling to sums for infrastructure or long term investment.  

[HawkHybrid]

1 hour ago, breaktwister said:

The current system allow banks to "provide finance" out of thin air

imo that's a skewed view of what it is. banks take on risk

to provide loans. the loans are an accounting method to

provide access to the flow of credit but the risk involved

is very real. banks can potentially go bust if they make

losses on loans and are not bailed out. being bailed out

during large losses is a government policy flaw.

 

HH

[Sal]

Just answer me this simple ? question. Is there a reasonable chance that over time gold and silver trend to worthless?  Say in the next twenty years.

[sovereignsteve]

picture a world with only one universal currency, fully digital, totally cashless. Why would you need gold and silver? It could easily be made illegal to own it and if you bought and sold it, all transactions would be apparent. The "currency" wouldn't be backed by gold and as there was only one means of exchange, gold would not be needed as a store of wealth. The world government(s) would simply abolish it.