eBay's unfair global shipping program + rip-off currency converter

[HeavyT]

Just want to let off a bit of steam about my experiences in buying gold coins from abroad using eBay...

eBay are exploiting UK customers who purchase items from international sellers. Their Global Shipping Programme (GSP) was introduced to make it easier for items to be shipped to international customers.  What happens is in addition to the item price and the seller’s shipping costs, anyone buying an item under eBay’s GSP must also pay an additional fee to Pitney Bowes (eBay’s agent) to cover import duty and VAT for all items valued over the threshold of about £20. In theory, this seems like a good idea which could make life easier for buyers.
 
However, this process is flawed because not every item imported into the UK attracts these additional costs; certain items are fully exempt from duty and VAT. But GSP doesn’t take this into account and still applies a charges irrespective of whether it’s necessary. Sovereigns for example are fully exempt from all such charges and there is no basis for any fees to be levied. HMRC has confirmed this exemption under Tariff Classification Commodity Code: 7118 9000 00. But GSP’s blanket approach means that Pitney Bowes always make this additional charge under GSP.  
 
Another way in which eBay is exploiting international customers is through their currency conversion. Items that are listed by international sellers appear on eBay with an “estimated” price in pounds which has been worked out by eBay. However, when making the purchase, the price is suddenly bumped up by what seems like about 7%! The price displayed is meant to be an estimate but the price ALWAYS goes up, never down. So what might appear like a good deal could result in a buyer paying more than expected. I know currency rates fluctuate but the price always goes up instantly between the moment I click on purchase and when I go to make payment so it's obviously eBay adding an additional fee on top. eBay need to adopt a way to provide customers with a more accurate means of knowing upfront exactly what price they are going to be paying before they commit to make the purchase.
 
I have tried raising both these points with eBay directly several times but without any luck.

Rant over!!!

 

[sixgun]

i do not buy from sellers subscribed to this system. It is a scam. NEVER buy from sellers in this scheme. Indeed drop them a line to say i liked your item but i will not bid on it b/c you are in this scheme which is known to repackage items, overcharge and defraud buyers. 

Ebay owe you money. They are not responding. You need to take this up another gear. The likes of ebay, Amazon etc have very poor customer relations. You just cannot get hold of anyone most of the time. So you have to go legal. You can do this yourself. Everyone should do it. They might learn. i buy from the US from people i know. i then do the trade outside of ebay and paypal. Do not feed the beast.

http://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/Archive-Seller-Central/How-to-sue-ebay-or-paypal/td-p/386557

[westminstrel]

Not just UK. Even for shipping to Australia sometimes the cheapest option using eBay GSP is around AUD 50 which is absolutely ridiculous. 

USPS First Class shipping to Australia costs about AUD 20 for a coin and would get here in about 2 weeks. eBay GSP comes to around AUD 50 and will travel around half of the USA before it gets here, and not in 2 weeks for sure.

It's sad if you don't have many options.

Edit: And yes, I have experienced that currency conversion thing. It shows me one estimate in the listing but sometimes the actual payment cost after conversion is different.

[morezone]

It does vary depending on the goods and country.  Pitney just use a generic 20% + handling fee for everything to simplify the system.  99% of all goods is VAT rated and stops people from falsely listing an item under something which would be VAT exempt.  It is not a perfect system but only affects maybe <1% of sales.  

When it comes to the listed price in local currency, as long as you use a foreign currency fee FREE card you will pay within ~1% of the quoted rate (Master card is usually better than Visa).  Never ever use Pay Pal's own rate as it is a rip off.  Also, don't use a normal credit card which charges as foreign exchange fee as it is usually ~2.99% which then takes you to around 4% of the mid market rate.  It is however still cheaper than Pay Pal's rate.

When it comes to shipping sometimes it's really expensive, sometimes moderately expensive, sometimes it's pretty spot on and other times it's super cheap.  Again, they use a generic calculation.  I've sent items to places like Singapore which have cost customers around £15 when it would have cost me 2-3 times that and without insurance.  An advantage with the GSP is that the package is insured by Pitney once it arrives at their centre.  It is package arrives with the customer damaged or doesn't arrive at all, Pitney will pickup the bill when the customer files the eBay dispute.  You don't have to worry about refunding the buyer and then trying to make a claim from the Post Office/Courier.

Your average Joe generally does not bother shipping internationally.  The GSP has allowed them to offer the item internationally which they otherwise would have only sold nationally.

There are both advantages and disadvantages of using the GSP.  It's not compulsory so sellers can opt out.  If an item is a buy it now, you could always ask a seller to price up internationally shipping themselves and then add it to the listing and remove the GSP.

[sovereignsteve]

6 hours ago, sixgun said:

So you have to go legal. You can do this yourself. Everyone should do it. They might learn. i buy from the US from people i know. i then do the trade outside of ebay and paypal. Do not feed the beast.

http://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/Archive-Seller-Central/How-to-sue-ebay-or-paypal/td-p/386557

you really think there's useful information in that link?

[SovTracker]

Just want to let off a bit of steam about my experiences in buying gold coins from abroad using eBay...
eBay are exploiting UK customers who purchase items from international sellers. Their Global Shipping Programme (GSP) was introduced to make it easier for items to be shipped to international customers.  What happens is in addition to the item price and the seller’s shipping costs, anyone buying an item under eBay’s GSP must also pay an additional fee to Pitney Bowes (eBay’s agent) to cover import duty and VAT for all items valued over the threshold of about £20. In theory, this seems like a good idea which could make life easier for buyers.
 
However, this process is flawed because not every item imported into the UK attracts these additional costs; certain items are fully exempt from duty and VAT. But GSP doesn’t take this into account and still applies a charges irrespective of whether it’s necessary. Sovereigns for example are fully exempt from all such charges and there is no basis for any fees to be levied. HMRC has confirmed this exemption under Tariff Classification Commodity Code: 7118 9000 00. But GSP’s blanket approach means that Pitney Bowes always make this additional charge under GSP.  
 
Another way in which eBay is exploiting international customers is through their currency conversion. Items that are listed by international sellers appear on eBay with an “estimated” price in pounds which has been worked out by eBay. However, when making the purchase, the price is suddenly bumped up by what seems like about 7%! The price displayed is meant to be an estimate but the price ALWAYS goes up, never down. So what might appear like a good deal could result in a buyer paying more than expected. I know currency rates fluctuate but the price always goes up instantly between the moment I click on purchase and when I go to make payment so it's obviously eBay adding an additional fee on top. eBay need to adopt a way to provide customers with a more accurate means of knowing upfront exactly what price they are going to be paying before they commit to make the purchase.
 
I have tried raising both these points with eBay directly several times but without any luck.
Rant over!!!
 

I have mailed several sellers in the US about GSP. Some say tough and others say let's talk.
About the currency rate that's quite a different matter - so read on if you want to save money......
EBay appear to use mid market currency rates (close to the commercial rate).
If you pay using Paypal, they charge about 3.5% to convert to your local currency then charge your credit card in your own local currency so you've paid 3.5% more for your goods.
You can get the goods charged to your credit card in the currency you bought in, for example if you are in the UK and bought in USA, you can opt to have your purchase charged in USD $.
That's where you can save - most Credit Cards charge around 2.5% to 2.99% but some don't.
Aqua Reward and Halifax Clarity are two examples. Aqua Reward is even better as it gives 0.5% Cash back on all purchases and you still get no charges for using the Credit Card Abroad - THOUGH YOU MUST PAY YOUR BALANCE OFF IN FULL EACH MONTH TO AVOID HEFTY CREDIT CARD FEES. This card was introduced to help people build up a better Credit Rating but I use it for my foreign purchases. I got a low Credit limit initially which soon went up.
I love my purchases on EBay now as I see the Paypal rate as around $1.265 and I got $1.312581. It works on any currency, not just USD and you can use the Agua Reward whilst abroad to save too.
THIS IS IMPRTANT....
You have to be careful though that you don't select Paypal to pay automatically on an EBay purchace otherwise it will default to making the charge.
Initially you have to add the "no fee" Credit Card on Paypal using a computer and opt to charge it in the currency you purchase it in.

Make sure you DO NOT LET PAYPAL PAY AUTOMATICALLY. IT STARTED DOING IT FOR ME SO I HAD A RANT AT PAYPAL. THEY SAID IT WAS A SYSTEMS ISSUE. AFTER ABOUT 6 WEEKS IT GOT FIXED.
If you have say 3 Cards on your account, when you buy goods using Paypal it will default to your Primary Card, but after you've logged into Paypal and it then goes back to the CONFIRM page on EBay you will notice that next to the Paypal payment Card it will say " Change", click that, it takes you back to Paypal. Next to each of the Credit Cards it will show the Paypal Conversion Rate - Except the Card you charge in the purchasing currency, click that and save!!

I have probably saved over £500 in the last few years and my Aqua Advance gave me 0.5% cash back too!
Here's a link to fee free Credit Cards abroad.....

https://www.confused.com/home-and-lifestyle/travel-money/the-five-best-credit-cards-to-use-abroad

Just note that the Aqua Reward is better than the Advance so you get the Cash back.
For my UK purchases, I use the Asda Cash back Plus Credit Card. 2% Cashback at Asda including fuel, 1% Cashback on everything else but a £3 pm fee. There's a fee free version also but you only get 0.5%.
You get the Cashback in the form of Asda vouchers - so if you don't use Asda ever, then look elsewhere.

Hopefully the above helps you save, or make a little bit extra - "every little helps".

[sixgun]

2 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

you really think there's useful information in that link?

Yes there is some useful information in the link, there may be better links but it is up to the person themselves to do the donkey work. It is not all applicable so you have to sieve through it but it is a start. Ebay overcharged. If they charged customs charges for a gold coin they charged where there are no customs charges. Someone pocketed the money. If they are not responding, which is not unusual with these internet companies, then you should be prepared to go legal. These corporations will not react until they are pushed and court papers land on their desk. They steal £millions from customers and b/c people don't know how or won't stand up to them they continue to steal. You need to write to the head office about the issue, if you get no satisfaction, send a letter before action - this may trigger them to sort this out but if not then make a county court claim. This is in the link. A small claims court claim would be the way forwards. i had an agent was not paying me rentals i was due. The claim cost £50 as i remember, it is quite some time ago. The paperwork was straightforward. i had made contact numerous times, the money was not forthcoming so i made the claim. i got my rentals and the agent had to pay my fees. These corporations are quick off the mark to use the legal system to take from us, they are even quicker to send round thugs with phony court paperwork. For a couple of letters and completing small claims paperwork the OP could probably feel a lot better about what happened.

 

[sixgun]

3 hours ago, morezone said:

.An advantage with the GSP is that the package is insured by Pitney once it arrives at their centre.  It is package arrives with the customer damaged or doesn't arrive at all, Pitney will pickup the bill when the customer files the eBay dispute.  You don't have to worry about refunding the buyer and then trying to make a claim from the Post Office/Courier.

Your average Joe generally does not bother shipping internationally.  The GSP has allowed them to offer the item internationally which they otherwise would have only sold nationally.

There are both advantages and disadvantages of using the GSP.  It's not compulsory so sellers can opt out.  If an item is a buy it now, you could always ask a seller to price up internationally shipping themselves and then add it to the listing and remove the GSP.

i was thinking about buying silver from the US. i noticed lots of sellers had 'Customs services and international tracking provided' and looked at this further. There are lots of problems with this. If you put 'ebay pitney bowes shipping' into youtube you can see quite a number of videos where people have had bad outcomes.

A guy bought circuit boards from the US and had them sent to Japan. Both times they were broken. He made enquirers. The packaging was poor and crushed, He complained to the sellers who said they always packaged well. Eventually he discovered Pitney Bowes repackage the items to reduce on weight. They removed the circuit boards from the seller's packaging and put the boards in flimsily packages.  So not only did Pitney Bowes overcharge for shipping they jeopardised his purchases in inadequate packaging. The video poster also goes on to explain that his compensation will be inadequate and less than the cost of returning to boards to get compensation. So in other words there is no compensation. 

[morezone]

The video poster also goes on to explain that his compensation will be inadequate and less than the cost of returning to boards to get compensation. So in other words there is no compensation. 

No idea why the boards would need returning. All costs should be at Pitneys cost since they were damaged. Buyer raises dispute. eBay refunds buyer. Seller keeps money.

Here’s my experience.
1) Gold coin never turned up. Buyer was refunded with no cost to myself. Sellers are not liable for non-delivery.
2) Coin Box was damaged. Buyer was refunded with no cost to myself and the goods were never returned. Sellers are not liable for damages.
3) 3 lego sets worth £1000 which were double boxed in double walled boxes. The smaller set was crushed (must have been turned upside down and thrown about). No idea if it was repackaged since it would not have been possible to reduce the size anyway. Seller disputed. Don’t know if and how much he was can compensated but it was not at my expense. Sellers are not liable to damages.
4) Lego set was never delivered as the buyer moved house and used his old address. No idea if he was ever compensated but there was no cost to myself. Sellers are not liable for non-delivery.

[sixgun]

17 minutes ago, morezone said:

No idea why the boards would need returning. All costs should be at Pitneys cost since they were damaged. Buyer raises dispute. eBay refunds buyer. Seller keeps money.

 

This is the case i refer to. This is the second of two video, so for the full picture of this man's torment you should view both. My blood boils about this stuff.

It is quite intricate, it seems the package was not insured, it was incorrectly labelled, Pitney Bowes were paying nothing, the seller was going to lose their money to keep a clean sheet on ebay but wanted the item returned insured and tracked. This was going to cost more than the refund. You would have to go through the whole video to work it out.

For me the message is not to get involved with this system. i do not understand anyone buying other than US mintage gold from the US and certainly not sovereigns. The UK is one of the best places in the world to buy gold coins. i have never had problems with Atkinsons, Hatton Garden, Chards and most of all other members of the silver forum - so that is where i buy my good value gold. 

[sovereignsteve]

3 hours ago, sixgun said:

Yes there is some useful information in the link, there may be better links but it is up to the person themselves to do the donkey work. It is not all applicable so you have to sieve through it but it is a start. Ebay overcharged. If they charged customs charges for a gold coin they charged where there are no customs charges. Someone pocketed the money.

http://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/Archive-Seller-Central/How-to-sue-ebay-or-paypal/td-p/386557

Have you actually read the information in the above URL you linked?

The OP was saying the buyer had claimed the goods weren't as described and Ebay refunded them at his expense. So the seller (his mum) was out the goods and the money.

He then goes on to outline how you can sue Ebay theoretically and gives all sorts of places to look for supposed useful information.

After numerous people post reasons why it's not easy or possible, he then says, well, actually, Ebay decided they'd made a mistake and refunded the purchase price to his mum.

This is a typical thread posted by yet another internet crusader urging other people to some sort of action, without actually trying it out themselves. If someone were to say "I successfully sued Ebay and this is how you do it" then I might give it some credibility, instead of having to believe everything I read on t'internet at face value.

Ask yourself; If it were that straightforward to successfully sue Ebay, would they actually allow a DIY instruction manual to exist on their servers? They must be p*s*ing themselves laughing at these idiots.

[sixgun]

12 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

http://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/Archive-Seller-Central/How-to-sue-ebay-or-paypal/td-p/386557

Have you actually read the information in the above URL you linked?

The OP was saying the buyer had claimed the goods weren't as described and Ebay refunded them at his expense. So the seller (his mum) was out the goods and the money.

He then goes on to outline how you can sue Ebay theoretically and gives all sorts of places to look for supposed useful information.

After numerous people post reasons why it's not easy or possible, he then says, well, actually, Ebay decided they'd made a mistake and refunded the purchase price to his mum.

This is a typical thread posted by yet another internet crusader urging other people to some sort of action, without actually trying it out themselves. If someone were to say "I successfully sued Ebay and this is how you do it" then I might give it some credibility, instead of having to believe everything I read on t'internet at face value.

Ask yourself; If it were that straightforward to successfully sue Ebay, would they actually allow a DIY instruction manual to exist on their servers? They must be p*s*ing themselves laughing at these idiots.

It is that simple. The essence of what to do is in the ramble. 

You put in writing they have overcharged you and you require the money back with expenses. Send registered post. 

They pay up or they don't.

If they don't, you send a letter before action. Registered post.

They pay up or they don't.

If they don't, you get the forms from the small claims court and file a claim. As long as your paperwork is in order and they have actually overcharged you then you will win the case. The chances are they will settle b/c you are one in a thousand who stood up for yourself.

This is in the link - perhaps having done this and gone to county courts several times and fought corporations many times i see the essence and skip the rest, whatever, the essence of what you need to do is there, whether the poster actually did it or not. 

[Xander]

1 hour ago, sixgun said:

It is that simple. The essence of what to do is in the ramble. 

You put in writing they have overcharged you and you require the money back with expenses. Send registered post. 

They pay up or they don't.

If they don't, you send a letter before action. Registered post.

They pay up or they don't.

If they don't, you get the forms from the small claims court and file a claim. As long as your paperwork is in order and they have actually overcharged you then you will win the case. The chances are they will settle b/c you are one in a thousand who stood up for yourself.

This is in the link - perhaps having done this and gone to county courts several times and fought corporations many times i see the essence and skip the rest, whatever, the essence of what you need to do is there, whether the poster actually did it or not. 

I am currently having the same experience with UPS, I'm at the stage of sending them a registered letter before I apply to the small claims court. If more people did this then,  just maybe these rip off merchants would begin to get their act together.

[sovereignsteve]

1 hour ago, sixgun said:

This is in the link - perhaps having done this and gone to county courts several times and fought corporations many times i see the essence and skip the rest, whatever, the essence of what you need to do is there, whether the poster actually did it or not. 

I will respect your experience of course but have you actually sued Ebay or similar or know someone who has?

It would be easy to do so on a simple matter of overcharging or not receiving goods but these would be a straightforward cases.

Many ebay disputes are not so straightforward and much of what they do is contained within the T&C which you have to agree to when you join ebay and paypal. I am certainly no law expert but I doubt whether these complicated ebay dispute cases would be successful at small-claims court as much of it wouldn't so clear cut as to fall neatly into the consumer laws, especially if you are the seller.

[sixgun]

1 hour ago, sovereignsteve said:

I will respect your experience of course but have you actually sued Ebay or similar or know someone who has?

It would be easy to do so on a simple matter of overcharging or not receiving goods but these would be a straightforward cases.

Many ebay disputes are not so straightforward and much of what they do is contained within the T&C which you have to agree to when you join ebay and paypal. I am certainly no law expert but I doubt whether these complicated ebay dispute cases would be successful at small-claims court as much of it wouldn't so clear cut as to fall neatly into the consumer laws, especially if you are the seller.

No i have not sued ebay but this makes no difference. i have not sued Virgin Trains but it does not mean it cannot be done. If you have a contract and the other party does not perform, if they overcharge or whatever, then you can take action. Most do not but that does not mean they should not have done. The people lose £billions every year by being lazy, frightened and foolish. The charges on USD/GBP exchanges by paypal are exorbitant but those are the rates. No point crying afterwards, don't do the deal. The terms are clear. Find another way of doing it. 

i often hire a car in Spain. i have just looked now. If i use the .co.uk auto-europe website it is £69 for 9th Nov - 6th Dec for an economy car. If i use the .eu version of auto-europe it is 44€. It is over 75% more to hire the exact same car, from the same airport for the same amount of time. Everything is exactly the same. A friend of mine hired a similar car from the same people from another version of the company's website and paid 3 x the amount i did. 

The OP claims he has been overcharged. As i say the case should be straightforward as long as his paperwork is in order. We aren't taking about a complicated case. if the claim is under £10 000 it goes through the small claims court. Of course there must be a breach of contract. If there is a breach and you have lost b/c of this breach and you have your paperwork in order, your evidence is presented in an understandable way, you more than likely will win the case. Ebay is going to settle a say £75 claim if they can see the claimant is fully prepared to go all the way. If you are being reasonable and you have a valid claim, then you will likely win and for the sake of £75 it simply is not worth fighting. People lose b/c they do not have their paperwork in order, they do not have evidence to support their claim, they cannot point out where there has been a breach, where and why they have been overcharged, how the defendant has been unreasonable. What is fair or unfair is irrelevant, it is what is legal and contractually enforceable. They have probably agreed to what has happened so no point crying afterwards. Cases are hard to win unless you can show where the other party has failed to perform.