1887 Double Florin & Crown--what grade?

[sovereignsteve]

53 minutes ago, metallica73 said:

Ok it looks like the last change was in 2013. Looking at Weighton coins here if you scroll down, the numerical grading at CGS was different for coins graded between 2006-2013

http://weightoncoins.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=228

So Derek Allens book is out of date regarding cross grading, and the table posted here is the correct one.

good detective work

[Xander]

7 hours ago, shortstack68 said:

Just to make it absolutely clear for some, direct from the PCGS website, American grade and the European equivalent, we can still see that AU50 is STILL VF

 

https://www.pcgseurope.com/staticcontent/comparison?l=en

Derek Allen must be wrong or outdated unless there are two Sheldon scales.

I think it was you who recommended I buy the book, (Grading British Coins )a few months back. I'll stick with the updated version of M Marsh, The Gold Sovereign.

[sovereignsteve]

2 hours ago, Xander said:

Derek Allen must be wrong or outdated unless there are two Sheldon scales.

I think it was you who recommended I buy the book, (Grading British Coins )a few months back. I'll stick with the updated version of M Marsh, The Gold Sovereign.

As @metallica73  pointed out, the book is 7 years old and was probably being written well before that. Standards haven't changed but we can only assume that no one really put together an accurate comparison table at the time. The one that Allen quotes was probably a sloppy piece of data found in some literature somewhere that no one had challenged as few collectors were swapping over between the US and GB systems and even fewer in the UK had much to do with the Sheldon system and US TPG companies. It was only when the UK CGS had graded enough coins and were able to compare the two systems on a sound, systematic basis that an accurate table was formulated.

Derek Allen's book is a unique and essential reference for anyone interested in learning to grade UK coins. I haven't seen the new Marsh book but I assume it won't be much different in format from the old one and as such, will in no way be a replacement for the Allen book. The two fill different needs.

Some might think your attitude smacks of being a bit sulky

[Xander]

2 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

As @metallica73  pointed out, the book is 7 years old and was probably being written well before that. Standards haven't changed but we can only assume that no one really put together an accurate comparison table at the time. The one that Allen quotes was probably a sloppy piece of data found in some literature somewhere that no one had challenged as few collectors were swapping over between the US and GB systems and even fewer in the UK had much to do with the Sheldon system and US TPG companies. It was only when the UK CGS had graded enough coins and were able to compare the two systems on a sound, systematic basis that an accurate table was formulated.

Derek Allen's book is a unique and essential reference for anyone interested in learning to grade UK coins. I haven't seen the new Marsh book but I assume it won't be much different in format from the old one and as such, will in no way be a replacement for the Allen book. The two fill different needs.

Some might think your attitude smacks of being a bit sulky

"Sulky" that's what the wife keeps telling me. Cheers for the info.

[sovereignsteve]

3 hours ago, Xander said:

"Sulky" that's what the wife keeps telling me. Cheers for the info.

We all know it's never wise to disagree with a woman

[Murph]

Is FDC and BU commonly used now?

When I was really into collecting coins many years ago I can only recall FDC being used for proof coins in perfect condition and I think BU wasn't in common use either.   Of course the Royal mint started producing higher quality coins as BU issues so I thought it only referred to them and not an actual grade.

[sovereignsteve]

1 minute ago, Murph said:

When I was really into collecting coins many years ago I can only recall FDC being used for proof coins in perfect condition and I think BU wasn't in common use either.   Of course the Royal mint started producing higher quality coins as BU issues so I thought it only referred to them and not an actual grade.

Sounds about right to me.

Other than the RM, BU in general parlance seems to be used for new, uncirculated coins. It is not a recognised grade in itself.

[sovereignsteve]

1 hour ago, shortstack68 said:

I emailed Derek last night, here is reply on the matter

 

Hi Dave,  The one I quote is the original Sheldon scale used in America but my book came out years before CGS or whoever it was launched their 100 point scale. I think that's the answer. The explanation of the Sheldon scale came from Bob Crawford.

That's fair enough but IMO Crawford should have got a bit closer than he did.

[Xander]

1 hour ago, shortstack68 said:

I emailed Derek last night, here is reply on the matter

 

Hi Dave,  The one I quote is the original Sheldon scale used in America but my book came out years before CGS or whoever it was launched their 100 point scale. I think that's the answer. The explanation of the Sheldon scale came from Bob Crawford.

That now makes sense...I suppose that's all part of the intricacies of coin grading.

[JohnA]

14 hours ago, shortstack68 said:

I'm glad we're on the same page now......

Page 2

I'm glad my post generated this interesting talk

[JohnA]

8 hours ago, shortstack68 said:

You'll find the subject of grading always a contentious issue, not everyone agrees with opinions and it will always be a hot topic for debate

Next week I should get my small denomination 1887 coins back from grading. I'll make a video and post it.

[Platinumskies]

I think the crown will come back MS60 or MS61 let me know what the grade is

[JohnA]

@Numistacker once showed two varieties of Sovereign. One had long tail on horse and one short tail. So is my Crown a long tail variety or were they all the same?

 

 

[Gorseinonboy]

I’ve read through this entire posting and by the end discovered:

1. There’s a book on grading that might indeed be helpful.
2. Different criteria exist from country to country on the grading of coins.
3. Even when employing the very best ‘scientific’ approach, the process can be subjective.
4. To achieve the highest grading and therefore highest value for a coin means being very very careful when buying.

Crikey.....for a newcomer it seems fraught with difficulty but I blame it all on Brexit.....

[JohnA]

Bonus video...measuring & weighing the coins

 

[CarlosSilver]

2 hours ago, JohnAnsink said:

@Numistacker once showed two varieties of Sovereign. One had long tail on horse and one short tail. So is my Crown a long tail variety or were they all the same?

 

 

They were all the same.