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Coin Licensing


Martlet

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Who can explain how mints are licensed to produce a coin for nations.  I've been intrigued by how many coins are from small islands and modest size African nations.  Just what defines them as "legal tender", when I think we all know full well they aren't likely to be seen in their designated nation?  And any ideas how much the nations get from this arrangement?

Wondering this for a while, though prompted by recent Shadow Stack youtube, so additional question to spice things up: whats different between say a Niue Czech Lion and a Rwanda Nautical Santa Maria?

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i went to the legislation for Ghana on legal tender. 

i will carry on looking but i see this section of the CURRENCY ACT - 1964 (ACT 242) - http://laws.ghanalegal.com/acts/id/21/section/2/Purchase_Of_Silver_Coin_For_Amount_Exceeding_Face_Value

Section - 2 - Purchase of Silver Coin for Amount Exceeding Face Value

Any person who-

(a) buys or sells or offers or attempts to buy or sell; or

(b) induces or attempts to induce any other person to buy or sell; or

(c) offers or accepts or offers to accept in payment of a debt or otherwise,

any current silver coin which is legal tender in Ghana for an amount exceeding the face value of the coin shall be guilty of an offence.

So anyone selling a silver coin for more than the face value of the coin commits an offence. 

So all those who bought or traded the 100 Cedis silver Leopard coin have committed an offence according to this legislation. There was a hoo har about the coin being illegal b/c the silver value was worth less than the face value - which i have to check if this is in the Ghanaian legislation, but here we have another offence committed with every coin sold and bought. :lol:

ps Now i see it is an offence to sell a coin for less than the face value on the coin. 

Section - 1 - Discounting of Coins and Notes

Any person who-

(a) buys or sells or offers or attempts to buy or sell;
or

(b) induces or attempts to induce any other person to buy or sell; or

(c) offers or accepts or offers to accept in payment of a debt or otherwise,

any current coin or any note at or for a lower rate of value than its face value, shall be guilty of an offence.

This makes me question whether the 100 Cedis Leopard OR the 5 Cedis Leopard are legal tender at all. Both are being traded illegally according to Ghanaian legislation, well at least according to the sections of the Act i have looked at

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

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2 hours ago, Martlet said:

Who can explain how mints are licensed to produce a coin for nations.  I've been intrigued by how many coins are from small islands and modest size African nations.  Just what defines them as "legal tender", when I think we all know full well they aren't likely to be seen in their designated nation?  And any ideas how much the nations get from this arrangement?

Wondering this for a while, though prompted by recent Shadow Stack youtube, so additional question to spice things up: whats different between say a Niue Czech Lion and a Rwanda Nautical Santa Maria?

Those are some big questions. The process behind a mint approaching the government depts of whatever nations, final approvals and the fees paid for the use of their countries identity and currency...... no idea. It's something that has never bothered me much. What bullion coin is issued under which nation is just a means to an important end in getting the coin out there, and carries no particular contradictions in my view, just as long as it has got a country and legal tender government license status attached.

That opens up why a legal tender status is important on bullion coins at all. As you say, all these coins will not be seen much in the nations they're issued under. They're certainly never to be used as legal tender. Isn't it more to do with satisfying our own comfort zones such as that all important stamp of approval from.....well, someone, somewhere, to affirm this is a coin, not just a round. It speaks of assurances, and guarantees, and recognition at some form of official levels, and the efforts that go into all of that.

I know why you're asking this in relation to the Czech lion. I won't say much about the channel you mentioned. But what i will say is this is not a round! You ask what is the difference between the Niue Czech lion and the Rwanda's? Absolutely nothing as far as their legal tender status is concerned. But one important difference, the German mint don't say something like "here is the newest German bullion release, the Santa Maria". But where lots of people are having a difficulty with the Czech lion is just what exactly is it??? Completely the fault of the Czech mint reps at coin shows, from what i've heard, in constantly referring to it as the first Czech bullion coin and making that the main point while brushing away inquiries about Lizzie on the other side (dealers too for latching onto that as the emphasis also). It's the first bullion coin this Czech mint have produced -yes. Not exactly the same thing, and certainly not a whole lot to get excited about. It deserves a footnote certainly, but not as the main message. Em so what - get back to me when you do actually produce the first official Czech Republic silver bullion coin. It hasn't helped matters that they have written 'Czech Republic' underneath the lion either. Jeez what a balls up. But that does not make this coin any kind of a mistake or the next big thing because it seems to be identifying itself as a Czech coin when it isn't. They can write anything they like on the design face. But bottom line it is a Niue legal tender coin. And also, it can be either/or "Niue" or "Niue Island". Both are fine and both have been used in the past. I think if we ask ourselves why is this (frankly very average) coin attracting more interest than it really deserves, the answer is all down to the smart marketers and the clever use of language which guides you into making all the (wrong) assumptions.

 

 

 

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Well there is one way to find out, we just need to get someone to issue their own coin. I would like this coin to have the legal tender value of a 100 trillion dollars. Clearly no one will accept it as payment. If no body accepts it as payment it won't be considered as currency, which should absolve any kind of counterfeiting currency issues. Though best check with the legal advisors before minting.

 

What we will then quickly find out is what legal requirements are needed to mint coins vs rounds.

 

 

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11 hours ago, sixgun said:

...

This makes me question whether the 100 Cedis Leopard OR the 5 Cedis Leopard are legal tender at all. Both are being traded illegally according to Ghanaian legislation, well at least according to the sections of the Act i have looked at

I see the 100 Cedis Ghanaian Leopard as an edge case, they made an error and released something they should not have. Its an interesting one though, the legislation for Ghana seems to say this is not legal tender.  So does it lose the status of "coin"?  

8 hours ago, swAgger said:

That opens up why a legal tender status is important on bullion coins at all. As you say, all these coins will not be seen much in the nations they're issued under. They're certainly never to be used as legal tender. Isn't it more to do with satisfying our own comfort zones such as that all important stamp of approval from.....well, someone, somewhere, to affirm this is a coin, not just a round. It speaks of assurances, and guarantees, and recognition at some form of official levels, and the efforts that go into all of that.

This is the heart of the matter.  Originally I was going to ask a question framed around what constitutes a coin and why is it significant.  The Niue Lion is a more topical point of interest that addresses the same issues really.  Is a coin simply anything that a mint is licensed to produce, which complies with their national definition of legal tender (which itself will differ between nations)?  Who decides in a contentious case if its a coin or not?

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A coin is legal tender. A coin is a disc or piece of metal that bears a value and marks recognised by a legal system [country] as legal tender. So a bar of metal like the Fiji 1kg $10 bar is a coin.

The disc or piece of metal cannot be a coin unless it is or was legal tender. 

i used to be all fired up about my discs of metal being coins. Numistacker in one of his videos made a point about this. That many of the coins we collect will never be used as legal tender and never were intended to be used this way even if legally they could be. Were they any different or better than well made medallions and rounds [US term]?

It is nominally a coin, a coin in name b/c it is just that, in name. A mint like Scottsdale makes lots of rounds and then out of the same process, the same minting presses comes a coin. The difference is a legal status. All legal states are fictions. It is a title someone somewhere made up and gave to whatever it is. The Lord High Chancellor is a legal fiction, it is a man given some made up title or other and dressed up in a costume 

It does make a difference for taxation purposes inside the legal systems which want homage from its subjects and citizens. Coins do tend to be more recognisible, the Queen's head on the obverse adds a certain authority to the coin but in the end the beauty of the piece does not rest on a half a particular woman's face being present, although in Young Head sovereigns i think it does. 

The Somalian African Elephant is made by a German minting company. When it has been closely looked at i hear there is no evidence it is accepted as legal tender in Somalia. It is not a Somalian coin. These 'coins' keep getting minted every year and people keep buying them. No-one has been arrested for fraud. No doubt in the ordered countries, coin are coins and legal tender but i do wonder about these lesser known and unknown nations. 

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

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2 hours ago, Martlet said:

 Is a coin simply anything that a mint is licensed to produce, which complies with their national definition of legal tender (which itself will differ between nations)?

In a nutshell, yes. With a caveat - they are not intended as circulating currency. They should only have a nominal denomination, and that is the term applied to precious metal bullion/collector coins. Once it's understood that bullion and collector coins occupy their own space inside those national frameworks, contentious cases should never arise. A good example of when it did was the royal mints £X-for-£X carrying large face values. It was challenged then and quickly stamped out by the mint and the banks. It did not stop the mint continuing the X-for-X idea, however, they just warn you never try to spend it.

[edited to take out an unkind comment about the RM]

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