Help with coin book

[FlorinCollector]

So i bought a book named British coins market values 2017. So far most of the coins I have looked up are sometimes double what the book says. I don't think ill use eBay just in case i buy a fake coin. I was wondering is Chards prices a rip off? Also last question when in the book referring to very fine, extra fine, unc, etc. Is there a standard of what you can expect to get as a graded coin. For example does VF get in the range of a certain NGC grade? I would like to buy some old sovereigns and get them graded but i just don't know enough yet if you could help with these questions thatd be great.

thank you

Joseph. 

[FlorinCollector]

1 minute ago, shortstack68 said:

@ChardLizzie can help you with your "is chards a rip off" question ?

You're better to check recent realized prices for what ever coin you are looking at. 

As for grading, I'd only be grading very high grade coins as you'll just be throwing money away that you might not get back eventually 

cheers mate!

[ChardsCoinandBullionDealer]

24 minutes ago, JCRJM said:

cheers mate!

Well, I am from Chard so it is probably unsurprising when I say that our prices are not a rip off.

You have mentioned that most of the coins that you have looked up are sometimes double what the book says - do you mean that the coins on our website are more than what is quoted in the book? It might be useful to have a few examples and to know whether these are all circulated coins or are you including modern commemorative coins as well?

Whilst we often refer to coin catalogues, we also research prices that have been achieved and use our own judgement to come up with the selling prices. We also take into account mintage, condition of the coin and our own stock levels. If the coin is a particularly high grade we may feel that the selling price should be higher. If we have a large number of coins in stock at a certain grade we may be cheaper than the books. Sometimes, we are lower than the books, sometimes higher.  We don't always agree with other peoples' prices, probably the same way they might not agree with us but you might be surprised at the number of experts who consult Lawrence regarding prices.

Another aspect to consider is supply and demand. Modern commemorative coins often sell for many times the original issue price. Whilst we try to offer a lower price when a coin is first released, we do sometimes increase the price as the mint runs out or we buy in another allocation which we have paid more money to get. We also consider what the current market price is - for example, we were until fairly recently selling 2009 Kew Gardens BU 50p in the original presentation packs for under £10, however, these sell for over £250 - we would be mad to continue to sell at the lower price and adjusted the price accordingly. Whilst this is an example of us increasing the price, there are plenty of examples of us selling modern commemoratives where you can make a saving - for example the 2017 Britannia 6 Coin Gold Proof Set set is sold at £2995, saving £300 on the RM issue price or the 2017 WWI Aviation £2 Silver Proof Piedfort Coin which we sell at £90, saving £20 on the RM issue price. 

Regarding coin grades, we are known for our conservative grading and customers are often delighted with the coins that they receive. Lawrence has over 50 years experience in grading coins and is well respected in this field. We use British grading terms as seen below:

Abbr.	Grade	Description
FDC	Fleur-de-Coin	Absolutely flawless, without any wear scratches or fingerprints.
Unc.	Uncirculated	In new condition as issued by the mint, but not necessarily perfect
B.U.	Brilliant Uncirculated	As uncirculated, and bright. Sometimes used as type description meaning "non=proof" or superior normal.
EF	Extremely Fine	Slight surface marks or slight wear visible on close inspection.
VF	Very Fine	Some wear on the raised surfaces, but still retaining much detail.
F	Fine	Considerable wear on the raised surfaces, all main features still sharp.
fr	Fair	Very worn, but all inscriptions and main features distinguishable.
poor	Poor or Worn	Very worn, some features or lettering worn away.

Proof is not a grade, but a term for a specially struck coin, often with matt design against mirror finish background, produced originally as pre-production samples, now often marketed for collectors.

Good - Although "good" is used in American grading meaning a coin which is not good, we use it in connection with the above terms, so that, for example, "good Fine" means "better than Fine".

Almost or About - We use "almost" or "about" to mean "not quite as good as", so for example "almost Fine" means "not quite Fine".

Art Not Science - It is important to realise or remember that grading is not a precise science. Opinions about grade will vary between individuals. Even expert dealers will grade a coin differently on different days. Grading is an attempt to achieve a reasonably standard set of descriptions, mainly to facilitate trade between collectors and dealers especially when dealing by mail order or telephone.

We don't tend to use the Sheldon Scale that NGC use, however for the purposes of your query a coin graded in VF would be in the range of VF20-VF35 - we wouldn't necessarily agree that a graded using this scale is necessarily in what we class VF grade. Confusing, isn't it? You might find this page useful https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheldon_coin_grading_scale

We sell bullion sovereigns, secondary market sovereigns and newly minted sovereigns, and we have heard about people grading these. We sell them as an investment coin with a low premium which also has numismatic interest. They haven't passed the quality level which we would use to grade coins but there are collectors out there who would disagree. 

@numistacker would probably be able to give you more information regarding the cost of having coins graded/slabbed. Although I can see the benefits of slabbing coins, there is something very special about holding and examining a coin that isn't slabbed, but this is personal preference.

It is definitely open to discussion and it will be interesting to hear other comments here.

[Guest]

Thanks to@chardlizzie for that detailed and interesting explanation of grading and cCards approach to business.

The only thing that I would like to chip in is that no book no matter how recently published provides an accurate price guide compared to real life auction and eBay sold figures.

Particularly popular modern commemorative coins can have prices that are variable even day by day or hour by hour according to supply and demand and whim.

For me personally, I would never rely on any book. The easiest place to check his eBay sold listings and if that is no help then previous auction sales records.

[ChardsCoinandBullionDealer]

1 minute ago, Numistacker said:

Thanks to@chardlizzie for that detailed and interesting explanation of grading and cCards approach to business.

The only thing that I would like to chip in is that no book no matter how recently published provides an accurate price guide compared to real life auction and eBay sold figures.

Particularly popular modern commemorative coins can have prices that are variable even day by day or hour by hour according to supply and demand and whim.

For me personally, I would never rely on any book. The easiest place to check his eBay sold listings and if that is no help then previous auction sales records.
 

Also, look at 'completed listings' so you can see actual prices achieved. Sellers can ask whatever price they want, but if it is never sold it isn't a realistic indication. 

[Jester]

1 hour ago, ChardLizzie said:

Another aspect to consider is supply and demand. Modern commemorative coins often sell for many times the original issue price. Whilst we try to offer a lower price when a coin is first released, we do sometimes increase the price as the mint runs out or we buy in another allocation which we have paid more money to get. We also consider what the current market price is - for example, we were until fairly recently selling 2009 Kew Gardens BU 50p in the original presentation packs for under £10, however, these sell for over £250 - we would be mad to continue to sell at the lower price and adjusted the price accordingly.

Whaaa??? Supply and demand? Prices go up as supply drops and demand increases. Seems like we were trying to help some folks understand this basic economic concept not to long ago in another thread. Supply and demand is not price gouging as Lizzie said (and eloquently I might add), they'd be mad to continue selling at the lower price point. Thanks for your response Lizzie, it was great to hear from a dealer's perspective.

[FlorinCollector]

4 hours ago, ChardLizzie said:

Well, I am from Chard so it is probably unsurprising when I say that our prices are not a rip off.

You have mentioned that most of the coins that you have looked up are sometimes double what the book says - do you mean that the coins on our website are more than what is quoted in the book? It might be useful to have a few examples and to know whether these are all circulated coins or are you including modern commemorative coins as well?

Whilst we often refer to coin catalogues, we also research prices that have been achieved and use our own judgement to come up with the selling prices. We also take into account mintage, condition of the coin and our own stock levels. If the coin is a particularly high grade we may feel that the selling price should be higher. If we have a large number of coins in stock at a certain grade we may be cheaper than the books. Sometimes, we are lower than the books, sometimes higher.  We don't always agree with other peoples' prices, probably the same way they might not agree with us but you might be surprised at the number of experts who consult Lawrence regarding prices.

Another aspect to consider is supply and demand. Modern commemorative coins often sell for many times the original issue price. Whilst we try to offer a lower price when a coin is first released, we do sometimes increase the price as the mint runs out or we buy in another allocation which we have paid more money to get. We also consider what the current market price is - for example, we were until fairly recently selling 2009 Kew Gardens BU 50p in the original presentation packs for under £10, however, these sell for over £250 - we would be mad to continue to sell at the lower price and adjusted the price accordingly. Whilst this is an example of us increasing the price, there are plenty of examples of us selling modern commemoratives where you can make a saving - for example the 2017 Britannia 6 Coin Gold Proof Set set is sold at £2995, saving £300 on the RM issue price or the 2017 WWI Aviation £2 Silver Proof Piedfort Coin which we sell at £90, saving £20 on the RM issue price. 

Regarding coin grades, we are known for our conservative grading and customers are often delighted with the coins that they receive. Lawrence has over 50 years experience in grading coins and is well respected in this field. We use British grading terms as seen below:

Abbr.	Grade	Description
FDC	Fleur-de-Coin	Absolutely flawless, without any wear scratches or fingerprints.
Unc.	Uncirculated	In new condition as issued by the mint, but not necessarily perfect
B.U.	Brilliant Uncirculated	As uncirculated, and bright. Sometimes used as type description meaning "non=proof" or superior normal.
EF	Extremely Fine	Slight surface marks or slight wear visible on close inspection.
VF	Very Fine	Some wear on the raised surfaces, but still retaining much detail.
F	Fine	Considerable wear on the raised surfaces, all main features still sharp.
fr	Fair	Very worn, but all inscriptions and main features distinguishable.
poor	Poor or Worn	Very worn, some features or lettering worn away.

Proof is not a grade, but a term for a specially struck coin, often with matt design against mirror finish background, produced originally as pre-production samples, now often marketed for collectors.

Good - Although "good" is used in American grading meaning a coin which is not good, we use it in connection with the above terms, so that, for example, "good Fine" means "better than Fine".

Almost or About - We use "almost" or "about" to mean "not quite as good as", so for example "almost Fine" means "not quite Fine".

Art Not Science - It is important to realise or remember that grading is not a precise science. Opinions about grade will vary between individuals. Even expert dealers will grade a coin differently on different days. Grading is an attempt to achieve a reasonably standard set of descriptions, mainly to facilitate trade between collectors and dealers especially when dealing by mail order or telephone.

We don't tend to use the Sheldon Scale that NGC use, however for the purposes of your query a coin graded in VF would be in the range of VF20-VF35 - we wouldn't necessarily agree that a graded using this scale is necessarily in what we class VF grade. Confusing, isn't it? You might find this page useful https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheldon_coin_grading_scale

We sell bullion sovereigns, secondary market sovereigns and newly minted sovereigns, and we have heard about people grading these. We sell them as an investment coin with a low premium which also has numismatic interest. They haven't passed the quality level which we would use to grade coins but there are collectors out there who would disagree. 

@numistacker would probably be able to give you more information regarding the cost of having coins graded/slabbed. Although I can see the benefits of slabbing coins, there is something very special about holding and examining a coin that isn't slabbed, but this is personal preference.

It is definitely open to discussion and it will be interesting to hear other comments here.

 

4 hours ago, Numistacker said:

Thanks to@chardlizzie for that detailed and interesting explanation of grading and cCards approach to business.

The only thing that I would like to chip in is that no book no matter how recently published provides an accurate price guide compared to real life auction and eBay sold figures.

Particularly popular modern commemorative coins can have prices that are variable even day by day or hour by hour according to supply and demand and whim.

For me personally, I would never rely on any book. The easiest place to check his eBay sold listings and if that is no help then previous auction sales records.
 

 

2 hours ago, Jester said:

Whaaa??? Supply and demand? Prices go up as supply drops and demand increases. Seems like we were trying to help some folks understand this basic economic concept not to long ago in another thread. Supply and demand is not price gouging as Lizzie said (and eloquently I might add), they'd be mad to continue selling at the lower price point. Thanks for your response Lizzie, it was great to hear from a dealer's perspective.

Thank you all for your help i wasn't implying anything. I just didn't know and looking at the book compared to the website i didn't think supply and demand would have changed that rapidly in under a year but thank you lizzie and numi for the help much appreciated. 

[FlorinCollector]

2 hours ago, Jester said:

Whaaa??? Supply and demand? Prices go up as supply drops and demand increases. Seems like we were trying to help some folks understand this basic economic concept not to long ago in another thread. Supply and demand is not price gouging as Lizzie said (and eloquently I might add), they'd be mad to continue selling at the lower price point. Thanks for your response Lizzie, it was great to hear from a dealer's perspective.

Thanks for no help Jester. Sarcasm at most. I was looking for help nothing else!

[Jester]

Just now, JCRJM said:

Thanks for no help Jester. Sarcasm at most. I was looking for help nothing else!

That wasn't directed at you Joseph but thank you for the snarky reply.

[FlorinCollector]

Just now, Jester said:

That wasn't directed at you Joseph but thank you for the snarky reply.

My bad then. Sorry.

[Jester]

No worries...I think your original question was quite good.  I too faced the same questions when first consulting reference guides and then comparing what I was reading to what I was seeing online.  It does make you scratch your head and wonder what it is you're not seeing. We're good. 

[FlorinCollector]

Just now, Jester said:

No worries...I think your original question was quite good.  I too faced the same questions when first consulting reference guides and then comparing what I was reading to what I was seeing online.  It does make you scratch your head and wonder what it is you're not seeing. We're good. 

Yeh whenever i think im gaining some knowledge in this space i see some other coins i have no clue about. Grades etc. 

[Murph]

A lot of prices are extortionate compared to guides.  Dealers, in general charge a lot more than reference prices.  At least until you have bought quite a lot from them, usually in person and you start to get better deals because they know you're a good customer.

People on ebay often vastly over grade or over charge for coins and you only occasionally get a good bargain.  

Auction prices are often much more reasonable but you have to factor in the extra charges which increase costs by somewhere between 1/5 and 1/3 of the hammer price.  Sometimes the prices are crazy as well though.  A number of coins I just bid on ended up selling for a few times the top estimate in an auction this week.  I had no luck and my advance bids were obviously put in too late as I lost a couple to equal bidders who must have put in their advanced bids earlier.