Graded/Slabbed silver coins- don't do it?

[Pampfan]

I would like to ask the question to all the forum members who have had silver coins graded - modern or  old silver- how their coins have done - condition wise - while in the slab. 

I myself do not believe a silver coin can stay a ms/pf70 in a slab over a long period of time, say over 20 years or so. Since modern coin grading is still fairly new - I'm wondering if any early graders of silver coins - people who had coins graded 15 or 20 years ago can confirm. 

I See the milk spotting issues of modern silver and the inherent other properties of silver, toning,etc. as the reason why I will never grade or buy another graded coin for my personal collection.

 

[Gav]

Following as this is a very good question.

[DavePanda]

I cannot answer your question exactly, however I can add a little of my thoughts, plus I totally agree with you re none grading of most Silver coins.

I base my observations primarily on my interest in Chinese coins.

1) The coin holders from PCGS and NGC apparantly are not 100% air tight.

2) I have seen coins that have been opened from their OMP then go on to present milkspots, when coins that are exactly the same and not opened have stayed perfect. This I have witnessed happen in a very short period of time <12 months.

3) Chinese coins that are Double sealed very rarely show any milkspots, even coins that are approaching 30 years old.

4) A very highly regarded Chinese coin collector suspects that the air travel with changes in humidity/temperature and subsequent opening by the grading companies is contributory in triggering milk spots.

5) Chinese collectors mostly prefer OMP coins.

 

I would never ever break out a coin or medal from its OMP to grade..I know others will disagree strongly with these points, however I have been collecting coins for a long time and have come to the above conclusions through a combination of experience and extensive reading.

Gold on the other hand has different considerations to way up.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Markh]

I don't have anything graded or collect graded coins. And I don't know anything about grading.

So my take is, if you have a silver coin that is graded to its highest level and then it becomes toned or milk spotted and someone has a coin of equal certification and with less toning and milkspot, people will naturally want the aesthetic appeal of that coin and pay more.

After all people grade to increase the value there coins. 

There are too many variables involved with silver coins. 

It is part of the  gamble if your doing it for profit.

 

[kimchi]

After hearing how some high premium silver proofs have spotted after achieving a PF70 I won't ever be buying modern slabbed silver or having it graded. In fact I don't think I'll buy any more premium silver coins full stop!

[Pete]

Knowing very little about coin grading my comments are perhaps useless but having said that I thought that MS70 grading was primarily about the quality of the strike, the accuracy in centering and that the coin is free of all damage, dings and scratches. If a coin is showing some toning or discolouration it is a cosmetic defect and I guess that is not part of the grading process - right or wrong ? Naively however to me personally an MS70 should be "perfect" so any spots etc would spoil the appearance of perfection but I'm not 100% certain that is taken into account when grading. @Numistacker is probably the expert here.

[Markh]

1 hour ago, shortstack68 said:

I was talking about predecimal coins and not modern, modern is prone to milking, but if you looked around at predecimal coinage i bet you'd struggle to find one. Modern proof silver is only good for a quick flip after grading

Yes i also prefer toned to shiny.... pre Decimal. Off topic will  modern coins tone as pre decimals do with age.

[Pampfan]

I also think that modern coin grading is just a way to milk the current day collector - there are over 165,000 ms70 graded American silver eagles by ngc alone for 2017 - can't see how they will garner any premium in the future - maybe $5 over spot because they are incapsulated.

[kimchi]

46 minutes ago, shortstack68 said:

This isn't the fault of the grading companies, if a garage were to turn down the cheapest ugliest car on the road they'd be turning down money and their bread and butter to make money, grading companies won't turn down anything to make their company money, it's the fools who submit the crap that are at fault and the fools who eventually buy the crap

Not a very good business plan in my book. Once the 'fools' who buy the 'crap' get burned and dry up and the flippers have little incentive to submit it, the grading companies are simply left looking greedy, untrustworthy and opportunistic with respects to modern silver coins.

To use a different (more aprropriate imho) car analogy, a friend runs a Jag dealership - they are ultra careful about what they accept, because they know their reputation is at stake if a premium car they give their 'stamp of approval' to turns out to be a dud days, weeks, months or even years later.

Unlike the car analogy, there is no comeback with the grading companies.

[kimchi]

18 minutes ago, shortstack68 said:

Listen, there's always going to be submitters and there's always going to be buyers. People have been buying and selling slabbed junk for as long as the TPGs have been slabbing and that process isn't going to end anytime soon. You can use your friends Jag garage as whatever analogy all you want, but i wasn't talking specific type of car garages, big bullion companies such as Apmex and JMBULLION submit in their thousands and there are buyers of these coins in the same numbers, they don't look at the long term value, what they're looking at is the number on the label, that is the most important thing to them........

The reason people buy slabbed coins is that they need babysitting, they need reassurance the grade is X and the coin is genuine, the minute people start becoming more savvy at recognising that their coin is genuine and in a specific grade is the moment that people won't need TPGs, but to quote numistacker, he believes that the reason British coin dealers don't like slabs is that they are defrauding the British coin collecting community, so when you have people like this talking in this way how do you expect to see the end of TPGs grading junk coins?

You brought up the car analogy, use it all you want LOL . I only ran with it because personally I think it's more comparable to high quality certification (or at least should be). If it's not, that's wrong, for me (don't they use 'guarantee' in the very name of their company? And just what is that 'guarantee' worth when you get a PF70 back from America that has spotted on the way back?). And if that's how the grading companies look at it (grade any old junk because you don't turn down money) then more fool them imho!

I don't see TPGs ending grading 'junk' coins. I do see more savvy folk wising up to their ways, and their reputation diminishing as word spreads, and until they change their ways I think that's a good thing. It's not just for premium silver either - look at them failing to distinguish this year's proof and SP Quintiple Sovs, despite even the most basic beginner seeing the difference, and @Numistacker pointing them three times to the Royal Mint's own designations!

[Goldhooked]

9 minutes ago, kimchi said:

And just what is that 'guarantee' worth when you get a PF70 back from America that has spotted on the way back?

Can it actually happen that quickly?  Or is it more likely for milking to appear some time later (days/weeks/months)?

[kimchi]

5 minutes ago, Goldhooked said:

Can it actually happen that quickly?  Or is it more likely for milking to appear some time later (days/weeks/months)?

I've had recent (very high premium) coins (stored properly) spot over a weekend - most luckily I could send back. I know of some (again, modern) PF70s that have milked within a week or two of return from grading.

I'm pretty new but it seems some mints are far worse than others. If I was collecting Pandas or Kooks I wouldn't worry too much about a coin from five or ten years ago that was graded and is still pristine, but I'm not after those kinds of slabbed coins luckily.

[andyman]

I have not been collecting that long but I do have modern silver proof coins in capsuls that have toned over less than 10 years .Before that I collected comics and have several slabbed and graded versions.It became obvious that modern graded comics had a greater  financial gain when graded at 9.8 or better compaired to a 9.6 which would be significantly lower because collectors wanted mint perfect examples but to the average collector the difference between a 9.8 and a 9.6 is not obvious.This seems to be mirrored in the coin slabbed collecting where the difference in £  between ms 70 and ms69 or pf70 and pf69 is vast but to the average collector is not obvious and what are you paying that extra money for ,in some cases thousands of £  .

[Martlet]

I don't really get the point of grading for new coins.  The older coins I can see you'd want to qualify it is authentic and grade the condition.  For proofs really your asking a third party to confirm the quality, which you should be able to confirm yourself.  For bullion or even collectables that are new, it seems like a waste.  Coins are a tactile thing, they need to be held and sticking in a slab takes all that away.  Capsules to protect from most air and handling seems sufficient.

 

[kimchi]

32 minutes ago, shortstack68 said:

There are more worldwide buyers of slabs than you think, bear in mind that PCGS alone have slabbed 34 million roughly, NGC probably slightly under that. The word thats spreading is that if a coin isn't slabbed it's not worth sheeeeet, just ask numistacker, he's the NGC enforcer on here and bangs their drum pretty hard.

Before numistacker came here (from the stories he's told) virtually no one slabbed, now look at it, it's a feeding frenzy, so, no, grading won't end anytime soon, the American marketing is in overdrive with this type of thing

So no-one slabbed, Numi came in and now it's all slabbing (I agree it's a feeding frenzy on that right now), but you can't see if it all goes wrong how the tide can turn back the other way? That's cool, I just think I see signs for myself that for modern coins (particularly silver, certain coins/mints especially) it's shortlived, and anyone who is half clued up won't buy into it much anymore.

The flippers will no doubt make their pound of flesh in the meantime, but to me it's unethical to slab and sell a coin you highly suspect will spot after the sale (to each his or her own there).

Personally I think the modern coin grading is all going to implode in 5-10 years, apart from historical gold and silver, but that's perhaps just me, happy to agree to disagree, and a debate well worth having!

[Pampfan]

All my modern silver coins that I have gotten graded or bought graded ms/proof 70 have not held up in the slabs - I may be unlucky but the reality is that most modern stuff will not stay In 70 condition in my experience - from toning on Mexican libertads - to spoting on maples, brits, American eagles, and philly's, I'm done. 

I think buying expensive graded silver is a losing proposition due to the added risks in the coin developing problems in the slab - 

Everyone needs to remember that the grade on the slab for a coin represents the grade at the time it was encapsulated and not what the current grade of the coin is at the present.

 

[BackyardBullion]

Some of you may have seen this video of my thoughts on coin grading. Here it is for those who haven't.

Bottom line...no-one is forcing you to grade coins, or buy graded coins. Do it if you like it. Do it if you think it can make you money. Do it if you like the slab itself. 

Or

Just don't do it! 

If there is a fault in the market then in my opinion it is not from the grading companies. As someone just getting into running a small business selling products you don't look a gift horse on the mouth of it helps to raise awareness and understanding of your products and branding.