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This forum is as tight as a fishes booty - Discuss


Paul

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2 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

As an aside regarding this coin. The problem is the fact that it's generally only the US market that would be interested in this type of thing. At the end of the day it's just a standard bullion sovereign, albeit a popular year. It is true that NGC in their infinite wisdom have decided to give it the DMP designation but there will be hundreds of coins exactly the same that just haven't been graded. The pop of 1 tells the story; either nobody's grading these coins or someone at NGC made a mistake in this case.

I know a lot of collectors in the States like to have MS70's and I'm sure someone over there would buy this coin on ebay.com but like the OP has said; everyone on this forum is a tight-arse and £310 for a 2005 bullion sovereign isn't going to work.

 

ps I say all this without intending any disrespect for our American collector friends;)

 

So here's the only flaw I see in your logic...any BU Sov for £310 I'd agree with you.  Seems across the pond you all are swimming in Sovereigns.  I don't know, maybe you all think we're swimming in Morgan's and pre-'33 American Gold coins (heck, maybe we are).

But for the specific Sovereign in question, £314.50 (all in) is a great deal.  Of a search just now through Atkinsons, Chard, HGM and BullionByPost (the largest British dealers of Sovs this Yank knows about), only two of the four have it in stock.  Chard has it and is asking £322.16 plus shipping.  BullionByPost has one for sale asking £363.  A casual search just now of eBay UK for the 2005 BU Sov with the alternate reverse returns results of £365 + £12.20 shipping, £379.95 + £11.95 shipping, £329.99 + £19.99 shipping, £345 + £10.00 shipping...I think you see my point.  So before we say £314.50 all in will never work for a BU Sov, let's just be sure we're comparing apples to apples and we know what the current available market is like for the specific coin in question.

For full disclosure, I took no disrespect from your post either :)

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This is a very interesting topic and has made a fascinating read so far!

Here are my thoughts.

I have sold quite a lot through this forum both in terms of bullion coins and of course hand poured silver. I have also sold my fair share of "flipping" coins that I have bought specifically for short term flipping. Some items are easier to sell than others, why is this? I put it down to micro economics. 

It is all about supply and demand. If you price an in demand coin well as we have seen it goes in minutes, otherwise you might have to wait a few weeks/months or lower your price or even just accept some items will just not sell here.

Does this make forum members tight? In my opinion, No. It makes them savvy buyers but not automatically tight.

We are all out to get the best deal possible and the fact that some items dont sell quickly when priced competitively is not indication of tight waddery...for example the Ares God of war coin I have - even if I priced this at £300 (by far and away the cheapest you can find this coin) this forum probably wouldn't snap for it...there just isn't demand. 

As to general tight waddery I think the forum market is Savvy but not tight. The recent sale/release of the 100g Silver Forum Bars is a good indication that forum members are generous and happy to spend their cash. 57 out of 150 reserved in 3 days with members happy to pay £83 or £75 for these bars. My hand poured silver is certainly not cheap bullion, but I firmly believe that these reason these bars sell is that people on the forum like them, see them as a good buy because they look great and also in part help both the forum and myself as a fledgling business.

So to sum up...are forum members tight? When it comes to certain items, no. When the right product and price come along, cash flows like a river!

Just my 2¢ - I don't mean any offence if any was caused!

Visit my website for all my Hand Poured Silver: http://backyardbullion.com

And check out my YouTube channel 

https://www.youtube.com/backyardbullion

 

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13 hours ago, Jester said:

Thanks for the shout out Paul and a really interesting post.  TBH, I was a bit surprised myself when I dropped the price to $400 (and I'm willing to go in halves on shipping anywhere in the world) and it didn't even get one inquiry especially as much as the folks that frequent this Forum love Sovs (including a lot of the new members who are interested in buying their first Sov).  Not complaining, just my thoughts.  Certainly not going lower than $400...it'd be silly to sell at such a price point, I'd rather just hold on to it.

I've had some great experiences buying (shout out to you @metalslug for the slabbed uber sexy 2014 1 oz Silver Brit Proof) and selling on the Forum and as @Pampfan said, I'd much rather sell here and give everyone the best price I can than give eBay and PayPal 14% of the sales price.  Great discussion everyone and great topic Paul...well done!

I've been abroad and then returned straight into moving house and missed the posting. This happens a lot during the summer and winter holiday months - posters go on holiday and forget about the internet.....you got mail :) 

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7 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

As an aside regarding this coin. The problem is the fact that it's generally only the US market that would be interested in this type of thing. At the end of the day it's just a standard bullion sovereign, albeit a popular year. It is true that NGC in their infinite wisdom have decided to give it the DMP designation but there will be hundreds of coins exactly the same that just haven't been graded. The pop of 1 tells the story; either nobody's grading these coins or someone at NGC made a mistake in this case.

I know a lot of collectors in the States like to have MS70's and I'm sure someone over there would buy this coin on ebay.com but like the OP has said; everyone on this forum is a tight-arse and £310 for a 2005 bullion sovereign isn't going to work.

 

ps I say all this without intending any disrespect for our American collector friends;)

 

I am based in a country that has an 8% tax on anything and everything bought (VAT) and that is after you factor in the actual selling price vs bullion price,.

The current bullion rate in usd is about 310 usd for a bog standard sovereign by weight only. Add 20 bucks (?) for grading (protection it is real plus graded) then add seller's premium and then add 8% to that.

 

So, in usd

310 (bullion price only)

+20 (grading) 

 =330

+ 30 usd ? (seller's premium) 

= 360

+ 8%

 

In my case, it is not overpriced in any way for me even basing it on its bullion price (and grading a DPL status is a small bonus worth the extra couple of bucks)

 

I was buying hand over fist last year from The UK as the exchange rate was hugely in my favour. The exchange rate has since eased by some 10-15% and so my purchases from The UK have been much more selective. 

 

There are many different ways to skin a cat as the saying goes.

 

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7 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

As an aside regarding this coin. The problem is the fact that it's generally only the US market that would be interested in this type of thing. At the end of the day it's just a standard bullion sovereign, albeit a popular year. It is true that NGC in their infinite wisdom have decided to give it the DMP designation but there will be hundreds of coins exactly the same that just haven't been graded. The pop of 1 tells the story; either nobody's grading these coins or someone at NGC made a mistake in this case.

I know a lot of collectors in the States like to have MS70's and I'm sure someone over there would buy this coin on ebay.com but like the OP has said; everyone on this forum is a tight-arse and £310 for a 2005 bullion sovereign isn't going to work.

 

ps I say all this without intending any disrespect for our American collector friends;)

 

I am based in a country that has an 8% tax on anything and everything bought in it and that is after you factor in the actual selling price vs bullion price, so the current bullion rate in usd is about 310 usd. Add 20 bucks (?) for grading then add seller's premium (where I am) and then add (% to that.

 

So, 310 + 20 (grading) + 330 + 30 usd ? (seller's premium) = 360

 

360usd plus 8% (tax in the country I live in which I wont now have to pay) comes to almost the 400usd being asked......so in my case, it is not overpriced in any way for me in my situation.

 

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A bog standard 2005 so just sold for 275gbp (ungraded) which at an exact exchange rate as of typing in usd comes to 358usd (a difference of 42usd from the 400 usd asking price by Jester (add 10 bucks shipping ?)= @39gbp or just over one gram of gold for a graded coin. In my world, I'll take that.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=2005 gold sovereign&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2005-Elizabeth-II-Gold-Full-Sovereign-Uncirculated-1C-Priced-To-Sell-/172825309869?hash=item283d30f2ad:g:dZ0AAOSw6DdZjc0O

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I think if you sell here it needs to be cheap, a seller needs to respect the fact that here you will not get scammed, here you will not get returns, here you sale is 100% safe as you get paid bank transfer or PP F&F - this piece of mind is worth a reduction in price. if you recognize this, and are willing to make your coins cheaper than you would net on ebay after ebay and paypal fees then it will sell.  

About 20% less than ebay completed prices is probably fair, and you need to factor in postage costs, no good comparing a sold ebay coin with free post and then trying to get the same price less fees but then add postage on top.

Just my opinion though..

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5 hours ago, Jester said:

So before we say £314.50 all in will never work for a BU Sov, let's just be sure we're comparing apples to apples and we know what the current available market is like for the specific coin in question.

You are entirely correct Jester, the current available market rate is probably over £300 and if someone on this forum was actively looking for one, yours would be a possibility. However, it is my experience that people on here would be more likely to wait for a cheaper coin rather than shell out the extra £40 or so. The topic of this discussion is entirely relevant here:D
The availability of these does seem to go in fits and starts; at the moment there seems to be a shortage and that is often the case after large rises in spot. However, they are a common enough coin and supply will return at some point.
In the general scheme of things, your 2005 is fairly priced, I was suggesting that it was probably overpriced for this forum and could understand why you hadn't had any interest.

 

 

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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People tend to have their established channels of purchase and stick to them. That's certainly true in my case. At the end of the day unless you're going to come around to my doorstep and hand deliver it with a free beer within the next 24hrs then there's not that much incentive for me to not buy from one of the online european dealers. Sorry if that sounds harsh and not very supportive of the forum, but that is how I view it.

I'm not a premium member so I can't see the sales threads, so don't consider them as a viable channel of purchase anyway.

 

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I don't know, but one of the things that gets me to buy on the forum is reliability it's original. I guess for the knowing people it's not such a big thing since they probably recognize the fakes I don't. I also understand when someone sells here they would like to make a few bucks extra.l8ke I have come to really like doing buisness with @Jester. Great guy and willing to help me and I really appreciate it.

But I think the complaining is more about someone hedging on a coin to make the big cash? I look as a beginning collector. Starting with what I can afford.  It always comes back to an item is only as much worth as the customer is willing to pay. Or at times the market might be saturated and the ones left are the people who can't afford the steep prices?

Guess I'll give the soapbox to the next one

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2 minutes ago, shortstack68 said:

In a word yes, because market, availability and rarity always dictates prices, regardless if no one here is willing to pay market value for whatever is being sold, someone somewhere will, so you either buy or you don't.

I also believe some people who sell on here might not get how much or how little their specific sales coin is worth, while others try and determine by their own crazy maths that their nice new shiny slabbed coin/medal is now worth 3 times more than they paid 4 weeks previously

Don't sit on the fence, tell us what you really think ;) 

 

But I agree - I think most people object to lining someone else's pocket with a huge profit, when they know exactly how much was originally paid.  I do feel that a lot of the time, this forum can become a bubble in itself: look at the silliness with that Ghana 100 Cedis coin... two months ago, some on here would have had us believe that the people of Ghana were mortally offended and the coin would be worth hundreds of pounds... now everyone's forgotten about it.

It's a natural phenomenon, but we certainly do we hits of 'Tulip Mania' on here, and people are starting to get burnt by it.

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5 minutes ago, shortstack68 said:

if no one here is willing to pay market value for whatever is being sold, someone somewhere will, so you either buy or you don't.

shortstack , is that not just kinda  a different interpretation of what I said ? its worth it because someone buys it or its not because so no one does .

dean.m

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shortstack, I did intimate and say "no matter where its for sale" so meant  globally  not just here ( but inc here )so if some one buys something the item is worth what they paid , even if its more than here, kinda like your luna ,if someone buys it @ $400  it was worth $400 for that item at that time to that person, even if someone else thinks they overpaid .:)

dean.m

 

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3 hours ago, Augustus1 said:

is it too simplified to say something is only worth what some one is willing to pay or it ?no matter where its for sale .

dean.m

 

 

It's more a question of liquidity than value.

The more unique your coins, the more difficult it is for price discovery to operate and the more difficult it is to find th highest bidder.

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19 hours ago, Jester said:

Thanks for the shout out Paul and a really interesting post.  TBH, I was a bit surprised myself when I dropped the price to $400 (and I'm willing to go in halves on shipping anywhere in the world)  .  Great discussion everyone and great topic Paul...well done!

Yay ! and it looks like this thread may have got you a sale !!  @Jester

Lots of interesting points of views on this thread.  

Interesting we are not all from the same mould and stack alike or for the same reasons

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@Jester's coin was the right price, just needed the right buyer.

I nearly went for it but I have a few 2005s already and, to paraphrase the seller,  'The resources can be spent on other, higher priority coins.'

I hope its new owner enjoys it ;)

Technically, alcohol is a solution..

'It [socialism] poses a growing threat, however unintentional, to the freedom of this country, for there is no freedom where the State totally controls the economy. Personal freedom and economic freedom are indivisible. You can’t have one without the other. You can’t lose one without losing the other.'

"There is no such thing as public money, there is only taxpayers' money"

Let not England forget her precedence of teaching nations how to live.

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Actually, this is an interesting topic (@Paul's usually are!)

I find that I'm most casual, more frivolous, when buying from dealers. I have an account and it's so easy to click, click, buy.

Agreed, with the forum I can show more restraint. I can research, consider, ponder.... I'm temperate with my purchases *

I wouldn't say 'tight' though. I never make offers. It's more a case of do I want it than it's too expensive.

 

* Exception is @arshimo2012. As you know, you have to act quickly! What was the record? I'm sure it was seconds :D

Technically, alcohol is a solution..

'It [socialism] poses a growing threat, however unintentional, to the freedom of this country, for there is no freedom where the State totally controls the economy. Personal freedom and economic freedom are indivisible. You can’t have one without the other. You can’t lose one without losing the other.'

"There is no such thing as public money, there is only taxpayers' money"

Let not England forget her precedence of teaching nations how to live.

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IMO, the sellers miss out big time on the forum because of the 3 day rule! The 3 day rule makes no sense for a free market, it only makes sense for a Cabal of whom are looking after their own interests as buyers.  As sellers this same group loss out on a lot of sales and the price they could achieve because of the same rules.  Other forums use different rules to secure  members identity eg time and activity on the forum.  

I have been in and around Gold (not so much silver) to know most releases will not be worth anything much above the spot price in 15- 20 years.  The amount of releases have increased dramatically from the mints even though the coin mint numbers may have been reduced.  This tells me their is around the same amount of collectors or maybe less.

Pumping is a big part of a sellers tactic,  yes the 2017 sovereign maybe going for over £700 but how many hands hold the Sovereigns and how many people want those Sovereigns?  If there are 20 members that hold 3 that means that at least 40 2017 Sovereigns will come onto the market at some point i can wait a long time! There are plenty of other coins to collect.

The Premium/Gold members already pay per month,  Ebay you pay when you sell at 13-15%  or at Auction 20%-25% or to dealer. I have sold at Auction at 20% and have sold for more than i could have got from Ebay or off the Silver Forum it just depends what you are selling!!

The buyer must beware and not get over excited before buying too much, I have bought some very good buys from the Silver Forum, though IMO some sell a lot that I would never buy as I would never be interested in.  Also some get emotionally hurt when others do not share their valuation of their coins/ bars  (usually the more inexperienced), valuation of coins can differ between experts never mined keen collectors.  

Slabbed coins, I do not own one slabbed coin!!!!  

       

 

    

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