Where are all the 2017 1/10 oz gold libertads

[sovereignsteve]

Watching the way these coins have been sold over the past few years, it seems to me there is a strong suspicion the mint and some dealers are in cahoots to manipulate the mintages and extract the maximum return from the unsuspecting public. A bit like some of the Chinese medals too

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, shortstack68 said:

The 1/10th is 436, you have to add all 3 months together. The end of the year will bring the complete figure together, but it's higher than the stated mintage  on the YouTube video numi uploaded last night and of course because he has the 1/10th the focus was on that coin even though he knows the figure is higher.

I wonder  what the reason behind the dis-information really is ? Could it be to keep the mystery alive until the MS70 coin is sold?

 

Yawn - ))

I have been monitoring these Banco Mexico figures for a while and they have been discussed heavily in the Libertad forum on Bullionstacker. My take on it is this...

These audit figures are the figures that are machine production figures and they don't seem to tally to actual mintage figures this year or any other year and why should they? I dont really understand why anyone is focused on them at all. I would be more worried if they were less than the disclosed mintage not more. It is clear for the gold BU that they are very easily damaged and perhaps coins are rejected (this is almost certainly the case). I get my figures from Pat Stovall of Mexican Coin Broker who travels to Mexico very often to pick up coins direct from the mint.  One time in the years I have known Pat he was outfoxed by a mint surprise (in 2015) and this is the ONLY time this has happened to my knowledge.

His allocation initially was about 17 coins for the 1/10th and most dealers got no allocation. 17 coins! and he is the best known specialist Mexico dealer...His allocation sold in 1 hour and when I replied they were gone. He then got a subsequent small allocation of another dozen or less coins and because I had missed out originally one was allocated to me.

The mint may choose in January 2018 to mint more of them or they may not. I suspect after the uproar in 2016 when everyone thought they had rarities they may choose not to do this again but they could, we will see if they do.

In any case the manufacture figures are always higher than the declared mintage figures and are only an approximation. Is there any off mintage stuff happening? VIP presents? A couple for the mint director etc.. well yes possibly but there is the same stuff going on at every mint including the Royal Mint I would assume.

I have seen posts on other forums saying maybe there are twice as many gold sets minted and maybe they are given as bribes and backhanders to Mexican syndicate crime families. Personally I dont buy this as there is absolutely no evidence. I have never seen gold sets available with no COA. The number of singles of most years is low to the point of invisibility even for so called plentiful years and the number of graded populations is very low and always in proportion to the mintages that are declared.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

Watching the way these coins have been sold over the past few years, it seems to me there is a strong suspicion the mint and some dealers are in cahoots to manipulate the mintages and extract the maximum return from the unsuspecting public. A bit like some of the Chinese medals too

Which dealers? 

There are maybe 15 or so dealers in USA and Germany who seem to get most of these coins. Most of them didn't get an allocation of the 1/10th at all.  I am sure that the dealers make suggestions but from what I can see the Mexican mint are very independent minded. APMEX seems to get them to do special sets but others seem to get what they are given.  It seems that dealers can only profit by having things to sell that are saleable. Tiny mintages dont make them money nor do large mintages. Libertads are fascinating due to relative not absolute mintages.

 

 

[MexStack]

May I ask where you found these mintage figures from?

 

[MexStack]

I dont think these figures are official unless released by Banco de Mexico.

[Pampfan]

Why does the bank of Mexico release actual production figures instead of a mintage figure? 

It doesnt  make sense they would just continue to produce coins they have no intent on releasing and it is hard to believe that their production methods produce so many coins that need to be scraped because of quality control issues. Could it be that are storing the over production in there vaults for some future purpose or usage.

 

[Guest]

Why does the bank of Mexico release actual production figures instead of a mintage figure? 
It doesnt  make sense they would just continue to produce coins they have no intent on releasing and it is hard to believe that their production methods produce so many coins that need to be scraped because of quality control issues. Could it be that are storing the over production in there vaults for some future purpose or usage.
 

The figures are public audit figures not released minted items. They never tally 100%

[Guest]

And YAWNNNNN, mintage now at 627 up to September, now, that doesn't sound much like a key Libertad to me, but from what i've highlighted in your post, what you're saying and from what we're seeing from the ACTUAL  mintage figure is that the Mexican mint has thrown out or damaged 100% of the 300 coins that you tell us that has been minted, uh huh, that's the reason for the more than double mintage figure.......Keep burying your head and pushing that apparent key coin mintage.....

I have sent your screenshot to Pat Stovall. I agree with you it looks deeply suspicious

[*tada*]

And YAWNNNNN, mintage now at 627 up to September, now, that doesn't sound much like a key Libertad to me, but from what i've highlighted in your post, what you're saying and from what we're seeing from the ACTUAL  mintage figure is that the Mexican mint has thrown out or damaged 100% of the 300 coins that you tell us that has been minted, uh huh, that's the reason for the more than double mintage figure.......Keep burying your head and pushing that apparent key coin mintage.....

 

If true they are really screwing with collectors, just so they can make another $10-20k as a Mint.

 

 

[Jester]

I love my 2017 1/10 BU and 1/20 Proof and they both graded well but if this is how our neighbours to the south are going to be running their shop going forward with smokescreens and misinformation (if that turns out to be the case) then these will be my last two Libertads...too many other great coins out there. It'll be interesting to hear what Numi finds out from Pat.

[Pampfan]

Me too - I have already sold mine for a hefty profit - but would like to know what is really going on. 

And just want to thank @shortstack68 and @Numistackerfor getting to the bottom of this. 

 

[Guest]

I have now been in email correspondence with Pat Stovall from Mexican coin broker about this issue.

He says

“This is a reply I got back this morning from the bank regarding that page:

"Regarding the web page you are referring to, please note that the information is for the “coins and medals in fine metals put into circulation”, this is translated to the number of coins we are selling each month and this includes coins minted in previous years."

I believe the key is "coins and medals". The bank and the mint are forever issuing medals for many different events, and honoring many different individuals for whatever reason. Thus they are included along with the coins.

The bank stands firm on the mintage of the 2017 1/10 oz gold Libertad BU as 300.”

The bank has now confirmed the 300 mintage figure 3 times when asked.

The production figures page and the information contained therein, is still a mystery in my opinion. I do not feel that I have got to the bottom of the figures on this page in anyway, however it is clear that the mint standby the figure of 300 coins at this time.

[Pampfan]

Thanks @Numistacker. 

[Guest]

The end of the year figure will be the one to check, Mexico are notorious for dropping the bombshell figures, so, best to let it rest until then, although i'm not sure what they mean by medal in the 1/10th column

Nor me. I still think it could go either way so I will wait till February before considering the mintage final. No plans to sell anyway.

[Oldun]

19 hours ago, Numistacker said:

I have now been in email correspondence with Pat Stovall from Mexican coin broker about this issue.

He says

“This is a reply I got back this morning from the bank regarding that page:

"Regarding the web page you are referring to, please note that the information is for the “coins and medals in fine metals put into circulation”, this is translated to the number of coins we are selling each month and this includes coins minted in previous years."

I believe the key is "coins and medals". The bank and the mint are forever issuing medals for many different events, and honoring many different individuals for whatever reason. Thus they are included along with the coins.

The bank stands firm on the mintage of the 2017 1/10 oz gold Libertad BU as 300.”

The bank has now confirmed the 300 mintage figure 3 times when asked.

The production figures page and the information contained therein, is still a mystery in my opinion. I do not feel that I have got to the bottom of the figures on this page in anyway, however it is clear that the mint standby the figure of 300 coins at this time.



 

That is huge numistacker. Well done. If the Mexican Mint screw this up now from here, they will have royally screwed the pooch going forward, even though mintages are still small by comparison.

[Guest]

But does this mean that the September figure might have 2016 or 2015 coins previously minted being released? Seems to be a possibility

[Oldun]

That is exactly what they are saying, including other “medals”

 

But if they nailed 300 proofs to the mast and lie, they will lose credibility. In the past, they have left people to guess. This time, according to Stovall, they have said 300.

[Oldun]

Because they can.....why bother asking....you can draw from last year and you already know that as does numistacker as he has well documented it,  so why bother trying to draw numistacker into your web....bad darts.

You have made it very clear insinuating that numistacker is pumping for personal profit.

[Pampfan]

I know from speaking to a representative of Scottsdale silver that a few years ago the Mexican mint contacted them to unload some coins that they had in the vaults from previous years. So this may be a common practice at the mint -( note - the coins were silver bullion and proof and not gold from what I can remember)

[Oldun]

On 27/09/2017 at 18:52, shortstack68 said:

The 1/10th is 436, you have to add all 3 months together. The end of the year will bring the complete figure together, but it's higher than the stated mintage  on the YouTube video numi uploaded last night and of course because he has the 1/10th the focus was on that coin even though he knows the figure is higher.

I wonder  what the reason behind the dis-information really is ? Could it be to keep the mystery alive until the MS70 coin is sold?

 

Take a knee champ.

[Jester]

With all this uncertainty around what the real 2017 mintage figures are, I decided to sell my 2017 1/10 oz Gold BU Libertad MS69.  And it just sold this morning for $750 on the Bay.  I've got the 2017 1/20 oz Gold Proof Libertad PF70 up there now for $350...let's see what fishy we can get to bite on that one.  IMO, there are just too many great coins out there to play a guessing game with BdM.  If the mintage figures hold...winner winner chicken dinner.  If they don't and the Mexican Mint screws collectors once again, well, you'll never get close to $750 for the 1/10 oz BU.  I'm taking a nice profit now and will watch the rest of the year from the sidelines with my popcorn and soda...

[*tada*]

Why would they do a run on backdated years?

 

No what they mean is they still haven’t cleared 2015/2016 stock. They minted 1300 in 2015 and 1000 in 2016, probably some got returned and some haven’t got sold.

[Pampfan]

55 minutes ago, Jester said:

With all this uncertainty around what the real 2017 mintage figures are, I decided to sell my my 2017 1/10 oz Gold BU Libertad MS69.  And it just sold this morning for $750 on the Bay.  I've got the 2017 1/20 oz Gold Proof Libertad PF70 up there now for $350...let's see what fishy we can get to bite on that one.  IMO, there are just too many great coins out there to play a guessing game with BdM.  If the mintage figures hold...winner winner chicken dinner.  If they don't and the Mexican Mint screws collectors once again, well, you'll never get close to $750 for the 1/10 oz BU.  I'm taking a nice profit now and will watch the rest of the year from the sidelines with my popcorn and soda...

Great job selling at that price

 

[Sovereign]

https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/2017-Gold-Libertad-1-10-Oz-BU-Mintage-only-300/122740087036?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20170727174455%26meid%3D43b3529da4004661b816fd9647c9a418%26pid%3D100847%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D122740087036&_trksid=p2481888.c100847.m3607&_trkparms=pageci%3A1bdcc8e7-ad5c-11e7-ac11-74dbd180155e%7Cparentrq%3A03f177d915f0a990e4e9a728fff98d7e%7Ciid%3A1

 

 

? €280 atm

[Guest]

Just checked the Mexican mint website on the 1/10th and another 166 were minted in October, so to date i've counted 803 minted so far, updated site is linked below
 
http://www.banxico.org.mx/SieInternet/consultarDirectorioInternetAction.do?sector=11&accion=consultarCuadro&idCuadro=CM12&locale=en

I seem to remember that the monthly production may not reflect the specific coin and could relate to previous years mintage residue of authorised numbers.

The mint have confirmed via Mexican Coin Broker that the mintage is 300 only.