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How much does it cost to self submit to NGC?


morezone

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I have been asked a few times as to how much it cost me to to have my coins graded by NGC without going through a group submission so I thought I’d run the numbers for anyone interested.  It should also help you compare against PCGS if you are using them at the moment.


Sending a small amount of coins yourself will cost more due to the higher postage costs to and from the USA and worked on a per unit basis.  However, this can then be offset against the cost of sending the coins to and from the group submitter.  Special Delivery is a minimum of £6.45 each way.


My last submission was 10 coins so I’ll worth with those numbers for now.  But…..10 is not an ideal number of coins as it doesn’t make full use of the postage bands.


To send 10 coins it cost £12.50 by Royal Mail.  My parcel was 330g or so but this price is the same upto 500g.  Per unit cost is £1.25 but if you had say, 15 coins in there then it would only be 84p per coin.


For simplicity we’ll use a single tier for these 10 coins.  10 coins at the modern tier is $17 each but going through a group submission there will be a 10% discount doe to the membership level.  I’ll talk about membership at the end.  Each tier and add-on combination requires an separate invoice which is $8.  So far it costs $178 for 10 coins on the modern tier without anything any add-ons.


Returning 10 coins is approx. $34.  However it is also the same cost to return 15 coins so the return cost can be reduced from $3.40 per coin for 10 to $2.27 per coin for 15.  The price will change as the value of the submission increases beyond value breaks as well as coin breaks so it’s a matter of running numbers if you want to maximise cost effectiveness.


$178 to grade 10 coins and $34 to return the coins giving a US$ total of $212.  Using 1.3 as the exchange rate we get £163.  If you’re not using a foreign currency fee free card you will need to add on around 3%.  I’ll use 5% for simplicity so adding on 5% now gives a total of £171.23.


Adding on the original postage cost of £12.50 gives a full grading cost of £183.73 which is £18.38 per coin.


These numbers are as for coins submitted on the same tier and invoice.  If you wanted to have special labels on 2 of the coins then it will be an additional $8 for a new invoice for just those 2 coins.  Special labels will then have an additional cost of $4.50 per coin.  It should be $5 but I’ll explain that with membership.  These 2 coins will now cost $4.50 (label) and $4 (1/2 of invoice) more.  If you want special labels for add-ons such as double thick holder/scratch resistant holder the fees can add up unless there are enough coins to dilute the $8 invoice fee.  Same goes if you have coins which are going onto a separate invoice because it falls into a different tier.  The other 8 coins is now $8/8 rather than $8/10 so the unit cost for those have shifted up a little.  This is where group can have considerable savings since the invoice fee will be split between many more coins. My latest submission had a single coins going into a different tier.  That cost me an additional $8 just for that coin.

I think that’s covered most of the fees and in conclusion it should cost you ~£18 if you submitted 10 coins on the modern tier on the same invoice without add-ons.


Next is membership which is compulsory if you submit directly and there are several options and is valid for a year.


Associate: $39 to join and gives you 10% off add-ons so special labels cost $4.50 instead of $5.  I do not believe is a level worth considering.


Premium: $149 to join and again gives you 10% off add-ons.  This also gives you $150 back in credit which means as long as you grade more than 9 ($150/$17) coins then the membership is effectively free.  This is my recommendation.


Platinum: $299 to join and gives back $150 credit so the membership is effectively $149.  Again you get 10% off add-ons but this level also gives you 10% off grading at both NGC and NCS.  Based on $17 grading fee you would need to submit 89 coins to break even.  It is less if you also submit to NCS and also higher value tiers as well.  Unless you’re submitting a lot of coins this level is not worth considering.  But if you do exceed this threshold you will save ~£1.30 per coin


ANA:  As a member of the American Numismatic Association you can also submit to NGC.  ANA costs $28 but unless you’re already a member this route is not worth considering.


Postage to both the USA and back is at your own risk.  I do not believe any courier will insure precious metals without some special agreement.  If you are worried about this you could directly submit to NGC in Germany.  There is also the PCGS route with direct submission in France and also at some of the UK coin shows.  It does eliminate postage risks but does add on travel costs and also VAT on grading.


Although it costs me slightly more to grade myself than going through a group submission I do it so that I do not need to rely on anyone and also have a paper trail for the coins.  Counterfeiting has always been an issue with raw coins and there is also a small amount of counterfeit slabbed coins.  With grading growing rapidly in China we will most likely see more counterfeit slabs over time.  By having the paper work for my coins it will hopefully add some reassurance when I come to sell in the future.  I will have the original submissions forms from NGC, screen shots of the grading from NGC as well as the final invoice from NGC.  The invoice numbers and line details will match the cert number on the slab so if anyone every queries the authenticity, hopefully this will ease their mind.


Hopefully I’ve covered everything or at least the important bits.
 

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12 minutes ago, shortstack68 said:

NGC are based in Munich where i live, but they just process and forward onto America and don't do any grading here, if they did it would make my life a lot easier.

Are Munich costs higher, is it not worth considering as I presume you will eliminate shipping risks?

@morezone great post thanks

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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1 minute ago, shortstack68 said:

Counterfeit slabs have been around a while, i think both NGC and PCGS actively update pointers how to spot fake slabs, but they are noticeable if you take the time to go over the slabs or look through both websites for any info. NGC are based in Munich where i live, but they just process and forward onto America and don't do any grading here, if they did it would make my life a lot easier.

Good post on the costs involved

Yes, counterfeit slabs have been around for a while but I believe we will see more and more over time.  Fakes can be spotted by checking closely and researching but it doesn't hurt to have that little extra reassurance for potential buyers.  PCGS has expanded into China a lot so I'm expecting huge amounts of counterfeits in the coming years.

It is a shame they don't do onsite grading but I believe they assume all responsibility when they process and forward your coins for grading.  If you have the coins returned back to the submission center for pickup I assume it is the same as well but I could be wrong. 

 

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I would disagree with you that the ANA membership is not viable. ANA provide at least $28 of value which makes grading privileges effectively free.

The return postage is highly variable and for my grading submissions has varied between $34 and $250.

Grading larger coins can change the dynamics massively and double postage costs outbound and inbound.

In the last group grading there were over 15 x $8 tier fees due to different varieties of submissions.

For scratch proof holders All coins in that tier need to be paid $5 or be out on a new tier.

The $17 fee only applies to modern coins with a value of $2000 or less (post 1955) but can include gold and platinum.

Older gold is $30, older silver is either $20 or $35 and coins more than $3000 in value are at $69 to $200 or so depending on service.

Large numbers of the coins submitted via group grading have been submitted to NCS for conservation. This can't be done online and as a paper process at $28 per coin.

The group grading thread contains all the information on NGC costs and is a recommended read.

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17 minutes ago, Numistacker said:

I would disagree with you that the ANA membership is not viable. ANA provide at least $28 of value which makes grading privileges effectively free.

I'm have no idea how many people are really into proper numismatics but I doubt very many.  For most, it is not worth it and if you are going to pay for the ANA membership you may as well also pay for the premium membership as well since it only takes 9 coins to cover your membership fee due to the credit that is given and you will also received 10% off add-ons at effectively no extra cost which is not covered under ANA submissions.

21 minutes ago, Numistacker said:

The return postage is highly variable and for my grading submissions has varied between $34 and $250.

It does vary but based on 10 standard modern coins of a total value less than $5000 then it's $34. 

Quote

The price will change as the value of the submission increases beyond value breaks as well as coin breaks so it’s a matter of running numbers if you want to maximise cost effectiveness.

 

24 minutes ago, Numistacker said:

Grading larger coins can change the dynamics massively and double postage costs outbound and inbound.

That is true and shipping rates will increase as parcel weight increases.  500g to USA is £12.50 but 501g - 750g is £14.90 and will go up with each weight bracket.  Over 2kg and it will need to go by Parcel Force which is significantly higher.

28 minutes ago, Numistacker said:

In the last group grading there were over 15 x $8 tier fees due to different varieties of submissions.

This is where group submission can help reduce tier fees.

Quote

This is where group can have considerable savings since the invoice fee will be split between many more coins

 

29 minutes ago, Numistacker said:

For scratch proof holders All coins in that tier need to be paid $5 or be out on a new tier.

Yes, they need to be on their own invoice if it's just the one or all coins in that invoice needs to pay.

 

Quote

 If you want special labels for add-ons such as double thick holder/scratch resistant holder the fees can add up unless there are enough coins to dilute the $8 invoice fee

 

Yep, prices to vary depending on tiers but on modern coins with a value less and $2000 it's $17.

35 minutes ago, Numistacker said:

Large numbers of the coins submitted via group grading have been submitted to NCS for conservation. This can't be done online and as a paper process at $28 per coin.

NCS will add more cost if required and would be an additional $8 for the invoice + NCS fees.  The data can only be submitted via filling in a PDF but I believe  it is not much different that doing it online.  The final data still has to be printed to be submitted with the coins.  You can also use the PDF method for NGC as well for those who'd rather fill in a PDF.

 

39 minutes ago, Numistacker said:

The group grading thread contains all the information on NGC costs and is a recommended read.

Yes, there's info there but for those who have asked about direct submission then this thread with some figures will help.  Obviously shipping fees will be dependent on individual submissions but just gives a general idea.

Quote

it should cost you ~£18 if you submitted 10 coins on the modern tier on the same invoice without add-ons.

 

Here's the direct link to the group submission for those who have not seen or read it.

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If you're happy for this thread to progress to comparison with PCGS....

Can I ask do all coins submitted to NGC include photo ID as part of the fee?
With PCGS there is an extra fee for this service of $5 (or €5 + vat in Paris)

NGC seem to have a lot more extra fees than PCGS in general.

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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2 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

If you're happy for this thread to progress to comparison with PCGS....

Can I ask do all coins submitted to NGC include photo ID as part of the fee?
With PCGS there is an extra fee for this service of $5 (or €5 + vat in Paris)

NGC seem to have a lot more extra fees than PCGS in general.

By all means throw in PCGS comparisons.  Some people prefer NGC, other PCGS.  Some may want to direct submit etc and costs will vary.  People can then decide which route they want to take and which TPG.  I think it is good to talk numbers as it gives people an idea of costs and whether a coin is actually worth grading.

NGC includes a basic photo of the coin.  When you do a cert search all recent coins (can't remember when they started it) will include an image.  I think it is 72 dpi or less.  For 150 dpi mage it's + $5.  They also have "NGC Photo Vision (PDF)" but I'm not too sure if the internet image if any different but you do received a hi-res PDF.

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If you're happy for this thread to progress to comparison with PCGS....
Can I ask do all coins submitted to NGC include photo ID as part of the fee?
With PCGS there is an extra fee for this service of $5 (or €5 + vat in Paris)
NGC seem to have a lot more extra fees than PCGS in general.


PCGS photography is far superior to NGC photography. With NGC you get a photographic record of the coin in its slab available online. This service is included in the standard grading fee.

There are a variety of high-end photographic services available from NGC which I have not presently used.

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I looked at what it needed to submit coins for grading last year and just gave up.  Far too many hassles and confusions, i phased out and could not be bothered to complete in the end 

I am sure they have lost as many people looking to slab coins as have used their services.

Fees for this, fee for that, extra fees for scratch resistant, fee for conservation, fee for membership, fees for speedy service, fee for a funky custom label.  

They must have got staff from Ryan Air on how to get the last drip out of the money sponge

 

Paul's 'back of a beer' mat suggestions to improve would be :

  • I send in coin(s) to NGC/PCGS
  • NGC/PCGS do all the donkey work of working out what the coin is, where its from, its grade etc
  • Charge is a fixed rate of $25 for the knowledge, time, slabbing, labelling, pictures, database populations etc
  • Standard generic label, holder, photo for everything 
  • NGC/PCGS send back to me slabbed coins at cost and charge my credit card 
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I sent a number of coins for grading to PCGS. They were all Sovereigns and 95% older dates. I dropped them off at a local coin fair but by submitting to Paris Coin Grading Week the cost was in Euros and it worked out higher that the US cost.
I had the Secure option where they Scan the coin to avoid fraud later on. The image on their site isn't so pretty but you can tell what coin it is.
All in all I had 60 coins graded that I had been saving up for 5 years or so. Total cost per coin worked out at £36 including everything (got a 20% discount!!) - not cheap!
Was it worth it - yes and no.
Yes - Nice Slabbed coins.
Value increased by about the cost of the slabbing due to me undervaluing coins until 3rd party grading.
Nice bit of plastic protects the coin and I can look at them easily - I know exactly what I'm looking at without a loupe - even without my reading glasses!
No - Pain in the derrière to submit.
Photographing every coin and detailing what was inside flip.
Anxiously awaiting results, sorting out problems because PCGS messed up on not putting
images on their website that I paid for.
This time I have sent some coins to NGC via Numistacker and await the results. So far not as stressed as before - awaiting the bill to compare but I've asked for the same service so can update later.
80% of the coins I submitted got the grade I expected. 6% graded
higher and 14% lower.
I feel happy that I know what I own.
Happy slabbing - or not

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3 hours ago, morezone said:

Returning 10 coins is approx. $34.  However it is also the same cost to return 15 coins so the return cost can be reduced from $3.40 per coin for 10 to $2.27 per coin for 15.  The price will change as the value of the submission increases beyond value breaks as well as coin breaks so it’s a matter of running numbers if you want to maximise cost effectiveness.

Thanks for sharing this useful info with everyone.

Just wondering if you have to make a customs declaration and how this is handled on the return shipment.
If you are sending say 10 gold coins valued at £1,000 each you would be declaring a value of £10,000 I assume ?
I realise that the added value invoice will be approx £200 so worst case you could be charged VAT on £10,200 which you would have to reclaim but if the shipment was processed correctly you would be charged VAT on the £200 ( or $200 ) plus a VAT deferment fee. How are you getting the coins returned for only $34 ?
 

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1 minute ago, Pete said:

Thanks for sharing this useful info with everyone.

Just wondering if you have to make a customs declaration and how this is handled on the return shipment.
If you are sending say 10 gold coins valued at £1,000 each you would be declaring a value of £10,000 I assume ?
I realise that the added value invoice will be approx £200 so worst case you could be charged VAT on £10,200 which you would have to reclaim but if the shipment was processed correctly you would be charged VAT on the £200 ( or $200 ) plus a VAT deferment fee. How are you getting the coins returned for only $34 ?
 

The return shipment is marked as "returned goods".  The value is at $10.  Technically you should be charged VAT on the services you paid for but since they just mark as $10 it just goes through customs without issue.  There is no insurance for international packages so the $34 isn't too far off.  If you had huge slabs in there they'd charge more due to the extra weight.

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I have sent over 1000 coins now to NGC and it has been an interesting experience. I have learned a lot and now have great relationships with pretty much all the NGC team. 

Is it worth slabbing at all?

I slab most of my coins because it suits me to do that. I like reviewing them and i do not like getting boxes and packaging ruined so mostly i choose to slab. Every coin I choose to slab has a different reason. I have had some very nice value added surprises and I have had some very nasty ones. I have achieved misery and failure for members of the silver forum and I have achieved squeals of delight and unexpected 70's many times. NGC have recognised varieties such as my 1911-D $2.5 weak D that is worth $2500 and many of you have been lucky with $600 PF70 Krugers etc.

I notice may people slabbing and then immediately  putting the slabbed coins up for sale. Sometimes this can work but mostly i slab for the longer term to preserve condition  and build a collection. 

Group Grading

It is a useful discussion to have and here is what i have found doing the group grading...often I have lost money in the process of group grading

I knew it would take painstaking hours and it has but i consider my hobby time free in any case.
I had do spend many hours creating a sophisticated billing and spreadsheet logging system to ensure that I had catered properly for:

Holder
Label Choice
Scratch Resistant
Extra Deep
Extra Big
Weight
NCS Conservation

I have tried to make the service ever more professional but I didn't account for the special labels, saflips, tape and jiffy bags nor (last purchase was $120 just in supplies)

The organisation required to get it right has been huge and a big learning curve.

Paying NGC - When I grade I always use my AMEX charge card which gives me a few weeks and does not charge interest. Until the coins get finalised there is no way to know the actual cost as NGC are always charging my card and making adjustments. Accounting for these is very difficult. Even postage is a big issue. When I get charged originally they estimate postage and if they feel they want to post express or it weighs more then they thought initially they will just charge another $100 to my card with no warning. I may havre already billed you guys and you may have already paid and then I am charged more by NGC with no warning.

FX fees - Though it is possible to pay by bank wire this implied paying in advance and then sending a second or third time during the transaction to pay for adjustments. It is probably impractical so I use AMEX to pay though this has a FX fee and not the best exchange rates in the world. In the UK you will usually need to factor in 5-8% for the cost of the transactions this way.

Would I recommend you grade with NGC yourselves?

Why not? its quite fun in a masochistic sort of way and you will learn from the experience. If you have coins that are bitty some old some new some big some small some expensive and some cheap you will probably drive yourself insane with the process. If you have say 20 of the same coin in the same tier it can be a painless experience.

Over 40 members have used the group grading so far and though it has been hard work people seem to enjoy the process and sometimes the results. It seems to be overall cheaper than one person grading themselves though the economies can vary and postage savings are offset in part by paying for Special Delivery both ways.

The Future

It is a service that i am likely to keep offering till I get bored or sell up and invest in Crypto... but bear in mind it only works if it is a group with reasonable volumes and if everyone does it themselves its not a service that will work as a group any more.

 

 

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I go to my lcs and get them to send off. It takes 3-4 months for them to come back and I have 8 that I sourced locally in the system at the moment, as well as one with numistacker (as i am not based in the uk, it is so helpful to be able to send uk bought products to numistacker if I fancy getting them graded).

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All points taken. I like the group submission and after submitti g 60 coins in one go to PCGS, acknowledge and appreciate what a great job Numistacker does.
Yes I got my coins back fairly quickly by submitting for the Paris grading week but speed isn't everything.
Like Numistacker, I am collecting for the long term and treat my coins a little bit like children - and yes when they don't do as they are told I shout at them.
"I said you are an MS63 NOT an MS62 - bad coin!".
I must admit I have less problems with older coins than I do with new ones but that's just my take on things.
Numistacker gets (was it?) 3 x PF UC 70 Strike on the Day Sovs - I get 3 x marked! - Sods Law

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34 minutes ago, Murph said:

Doesn't anyone else find the US grading companies aren't so great with British coins?

What do u mean by great ? The label on the slabs or the coin not so great after slab 

MY TOTAL FORUM TRADE FEEDBACK IS 100 AND IT IS 100%

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  • 4 weeks later...

Having had a few graded by NGC, I have come to my conclusions on Slabbing preferences for Gold Sovereigns (I only collect Sovereigns so this is all I am commenting about). This is purely my take on things and I know many will have their own ideas but in general.....

Elizabeth Sovs 1957 to date - it does not really matter - both PCGS and NGC cover the same bases and there are no Sov variations to worry about.

George Sovs - again as above.

Edward Sovs - I probably edge towards NGC on consistency. I find PCGS aren't totally consistent - but who is!

Victoria Sovs - if it's a variety, error or speciality 100% PCGS - NGC just don't generally segregate from the main type. Take Jubilee's for example - they might mark the label if you ask them and pay $15 for the privilege but your coin ends up with the masses.

PCGS on the other hand have been splitting their Population Report to take account of a lot off varieties and errors.

Everyday Victoria's - there NGC come into their own, consistency, simple label, nice white surround to show off the coin and a nicer slab in the hand.

As far as cost is concerned, the coins Numistacker sent in have cost about 17% less than a Dealers cost to PCGS through Paris.

I don't like the PCGS Secure photo's, scans, call them what you will. It won't help you sell your coin, unless the coin is flawless! - you just don't get flawless 100 year old Sovs! Paying an extra $15? I think for Truview pictures is a bit of a joke IMHO.

Do I like getting my coins Graded and Slabbed - you bet.

Do I have a favourite grader - no!

 

 

 

 

 

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70 grades

I have seen a bit how moderns are graded and I don't think that there is a pattern. I think the graders have two views innocent till guilty and guilty till innocent.

Most 2017 Sovs have been 70's so the standard is 70 unless they spot something. Same with Centennial gold and 2016 Gold pandas I graded.

Other way round for Proof Krugs and Rwanda Roosters...

I am half thinking it might be a pattern from the first few to be sent in. Yet... Platinum Britannias 2017 first ones were 70 and most others 69 same with bullion Griffins...

So I guess no real patterns...

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Proof Krugs had problems from the beginning, graders and the TPGs aren't silly, they keep in the loop about coins as much as we do, so they'll be looking at the coins with a much keener eye.
The rooster had no reported problems but we're still difficult to get 70s on, I got 2 from 8. I think both companies look at each other's pop reports and see what they have graded in certain grades.
The first few sent in will ALWAYS get more favorable grades, it's a lucky dip after that.


In many ways grading needs to be absolute not relative or copycat. On the other hand it is nice when we as a group get in first and get 70's and then others tag behind.

70 Griffin is £700 70 Krugerrand maybe 600. It's nice when it happens but for me in the future I want older solid coins with a price growth history.

I guess if I was more of a flipper I would have other objectives
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I also noticed the griffin that sold for £700, American dealer. If people are really looking at growth then they should be looking at pre decimal coinage instead of modern, IMO modern doesn't have the growth expansion like pre decimal does., but that doesn't mean that every pre decimal coin will be the same, top graded coins will do much better than an EF


I agree totally with that sentiment and I think high quality pre-decimal coins will show a good return over the next 10 years. There is a very limited supply and a largely untapped world market.
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  • 4 months later...

I've had some good discussions with Heritage Auctions this week. They seem keen to become the best way for folk in the UK to submit coins to NGC in Florida (hence their presence at the London Coin Show on Saturday, only to accept submissions - they will have nothing for sale I've been told). Also (not least!) the added bonus of expedited service this time for the big launch!

The prices are the same as for regular submissions + 20% VAT for their services. However insured delivery to NGC America and back again is included, which is a good saving, and insurance is a huge major plus for me.

However if you're an Elite Member of NGC they are currently honouring the 10% discount, so it might be a good idea to leap on this sooner rather than later if you fall into that bracket (?)! :)

<edit> I have also been told their experts can and will check coins upon request to recommend NCS or not so that may save folk a few bob as well (depending on how good their experts are - I guess we will have feedback from members here pretty soon!)

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